Conference Talk

[Sly Fox]

Now that it is June and we have nothing happening on campus until training camp starts up for football in two months, perhaps now is the time to resurrect our discussion on conference affiliation.

This past week, the Southern Conference held their annual meetings and surprisingly DID NOT send out an invitation to Coastal Carolina to join their league. Frankly, that's fantastic news for Liberty. If CCU had walked, the Big South would've all but collapsed. LU, CCU & VMI are essentially holding up this conference right now for all intents & purposes.

Now that we know that Coastal is sticking around at least for a little while longer, perhaps we should start focusing on what the Big South can do to attract another football member.

Or maybe we should start looking toward what we can do to begin a step up to I-A status yeah, I know I'm beating this dead horse again).

With the CAA essentially out of the equation for us with all their recent expsnion and the return of football, we need to move on away from wasting our time trying to join the Colonial or A-10. While both would be great steps for us, it simply isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Should we begin exploring the possibility of creating a new league with other disenfranchised programs?

I know many of you have shared your feelings in the past. But the board has grown tremendously over the past six months and there are plenty of new voices to be heard along with the old ones restating their cases.

Let's hear them.

[Realist]

I think the Coastal talk to the Southern is almost shut down at this point. There are just too many of the private, high academic schools in the Southern for Coastal to gain the necessary votes to get in. They are just not going to allow a sports first, academics last institution in. Furman and the Citadel I know are vehemently opposed to it. I honestly believe LU is more of an attractive canidate to the Southern, while not necessarily showing the high academic standards, they would appeal to some of the moral standards that some of the those private, traditionally religious schools that will never let Coastal in.

But who really cares? The Southern just isn't that much of a move. Coastal baseball would suffer I think, going to a like conference but without a program like WU to continually make each other better. CCU and WU both have better programs than any Southern school. Basketball is oranges and orangers as well, and the Southern has been falling while I'd say the BSC improving over the last couple of years. Football is exponentially better, but is that a good move? The Southern has its tradtional football powers and bottom dwellers that rarely variate from year to year, my guess is that CCU would have become another Elon in terms of football, so why not wait out an automatic bid if the BSC can get another team.

I hope you were kidding about VMI holding up the conference. They are barely competitive in almost every sport. WU, LU, and CCU are the three that keep it respectable.

[PAmedic]

I agree that we should stay where we are and work to improve the conference. In fact, improve our outlook on athletics ON CAMPUS first, while we're at it. From the sounds of it (Bear in mind I haven't been on the mt for 15 yrs) our students STILL don't follow the teams ardently. We GOTTA have that kind of rabid fan support FIRST before trying to move up. D1 A would be GREAT but #1- I think we are lacking the facilities AND funds to be competetive for a LONG time, and #2- as a result of that we would stink up the league (?) for so long our fan base would dwindle further. Ever see a Mountain West (or similar league) football game on ESPN2? about 5000 people in a 75000 seat stadium. Embarressing.

[ATrain]

Fan support is better than it was, but its still not rabid. Most people go to football games just to socialize and often don't stay the whole time...unlike hockey games where we'll go and stay for the whole thing. We do have a loyal group of fans who go to the women's bball games, and the men do attract a nice number of fans as well...but its nowhere near what Duke or an ACC school would be.

As for improving the league, I agree that LU, CCU, and WU need to have loyalty to each other in order to make the league more respectable...if one were to leave, then that'd just leave the doors open for the other two to dominate the recently vacated championships.

We also need to attract more quality members, like maybe invite in Texas A&M Corpus Christi since they'll be real competitive instantly in nearly all sports. Central Arkansas wouldn't make a bad football member, it'll give the league a 6th team for football, and Longwood would geographically make sense and they can definitely compete with the bottom 7 of the leauge in women's bball.

[Sly Fox]

Realist -- You would think the Southern Conference would find a school like Liberty attractive. But for years we were spurned in our efforts to get in that league. Thankfully, we've changed our focus. Although at times I would like to have a better understanding of what our focus currently is.

When I mentioned VMI, I was referring primarily to football and its standing in general in the region. I'm well aware of their lack of success in action. But like it or not, they do have name recognition and easily the strongest alumni base in the league.

I think most of us all agree that the Southern Conference should be an afterthought for us. But I'd love to hear from some of the Winthrop & Coastal posters who drop by what their thoughts are to try and improve the not so Big South.

As for I-A, I'll regurgitate some of well-documented thoughts later int he thread once we get a few more opinions on here.

I will say that I really like the competitive relationships we have built with Coastal, Winthrop & VMI in recent years. As for the rest of the BSC, it seems like its mens basketball only that makes them worth any count. We could sure use some effort from some of these others schools to upgrade their facilities and programs.

[Realist]

I honestly don't know much or have put much thought into who the BSC should go after. I know more on the politics of Southern and BSC stuff as I know some insiders in the SoCon.

I would agree with ATrain on TAMCC. Especially for basketball after the year they had, and overall in general. Longwood seems like a stretch to me, they are pretty weak in everything and I know you guys love the women's b-ball but that never should be a factor in whether you admit a school into the league. Central Arkansas I'm totally ignorant on.

Presbyterian College seems like it could possibly make a good football member, they are good for their level. But you guys probably know more than me on football stuff. Plus they have shirts that say "if you don't know who we are, you probably can't afford us." Who wants that in the league?

[bigsmooth]

sly, we go after top level D-2 programs in the south and offer them membership. certainly the top level teams can compete and even beat teams in our leauge. of course with the NCAA waiting period, i believe it would take 2 years to fully be a I-AA school, it would cetianly bode well for the league and get an automatic bid to the playoffs. that is all we need to finish the puzzle to LU football and really upgrade our recruits.

[Sly Fox]

We already have VMI in our league, so the rich kids at Presbyterian would feel right at home. I know Presbyterian has been talked about quite a bit as someone who might step up to I-AA and geographically fit in the Big South. But I haven't seen any indication that the school wants to make the move up.

Of course we would need to make sure none of our current football members leave in order for us to get that automatic playoff bid. And after Elon skipped out, forgive me for feeling like we need to keep the wagons circled.

As for A&M-CC, I have quite a bit of direct knowledge on that program. They really are not interested in joining the Big South for all programs. The travel costs would wipe them out. They are pushing hard to get in the Southland. They would definitely become the cream of the crop in most sports in our league right away. That campus is extremely cool sitting on an island in the bay down in Corpus. They used to be a tennis & hoops powerhouse back in the '70s when they were a SBC school. But after totally disbanding athletics when they were turned over to the state, the school has spent quite a bit of money to get back into athletics in a big way. But they can't find a natural fit as far as a conference. They are hesitant to start up a football program because they don't want to play I-AA. They want to someday go I-A but they don't have the finances yet. Bottom line, I suspect either The Southland or Sun Belt will be bringing them in in the next year or so. For the record, I covered sports for over six years in Corpus Christi (including when the brought back NCAA athletics) and I still keep tabs on the Islanders with many friends down there.

[Sly Fox]

By the way, here's the current Coastal Carolina perspective from their board:

www.ccuchants.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=675

[Sly Fox]

I have previously stated my opinion that we should be considering a step up to I-A status. The additional costs above what we are already paying would not be terribly significant. Scheduling would be the biggest issue and the associated travel costs.

But what if we had a few others to cooperate with us in creating a new league? The NCAA has made it even easier over the past year or so to obtain & maintain I-A membership. So all we would need is a couple of I-AA partners to make the step up with us to join some disenfranchised current I-A members. If we were to partner up with Coastal and possibly VMI from the Big South (and yes, I know VMI is not likely to want to make the jump) along with some of the Southern & CAA schools looking at stepping up like Appy St and maybe JMU, Delaware or Richmond we could build a decent non-BCS league similar to the MAC or Sunbelt in the Mid-Atlantic region. WE could probably attract a school like East Carolina and possibly even Navy if we played our cards right.

If you think what I am spouting is lunacy, I am not the only one who sees a mad rush to I-A membership on the horizon. Check out the following posted on the I-AA site that is basically the voice of I-AA football in America today:

www.i-aa.com/news/article_10007.shtml

I have felt for years that we could even survive as a I-A Independent in football with Big South membership in other sports. Our I-A status in football would help us attract better quality athletes in all the other sports with the increased visibility. And I am confident that schools like UVa, VaTech and much of the ACC wouldn't mind scheduling someone who could help them with bowl eligibility without being a serious threat.

Am I nuts?

[bigsmooth]

i agree with moving up to I-A. so what if we have a few home games and we play the big boys most every weekend. we would get big guarantees, and could continue to upgrade our facilities, recruiting budgets etc. and being centered in ACC country and close to the big east im sure those schhols would be looking for that new 12th game. i would love for LU to stay I-AA and add presybterian, catawba, or carson newman...i know the last one is far-fetched, but the BSC would have instant credibilty and have a good possibility of gaining an automatic bid. we need to be a constant playoff team before we jump IMHO, but that might not be possible.

[Sly Fox]

I don't think Carson Newman is any more farfetched than Presbyterian. I know they aren't very big but they could fit nicely into the Big South fairly quickly. If we are going to recruit D2s to get out 6th football member, I think those two schools would have to be the top candidates right now.

But I still believe making the jump to I-A status, as painful as it might be initially, is our best course of action.

[Sly Fox]

Yeah, I know that I am basically talking to myself in this thread.

For what it is worth, here are the current NCAA requirements for membership in I-A:

1. Attendance: You have to average 15k in one of your two prior seasons (either paid or actual). This gives a school a break if you have a bad turnout one season.

This would obviously be a challenge based on our current attendance. But if we were playing a I-A schedule we would be attracting visiting fans in addition to hopefully bringing out some townfolk.

2. Scheduling: Play five I-A home games in a season. There are a few loopholes that allow for one neutral site game to count toward the five and I-AA if that school meets certain scholarship limits.

We would obviously need to find a way into a I-A conference or start one up with some other schools making the jump to meet this criteria. That's what happened with the Sunbelt schools and we would like to do the same.

3. Scholarship Sports: A school has to sponsor at least 16 sports.

With the addition of wrestling, we stand at 16 right now by my count. And with talk of hockey coming along, this would not be a concern at all.

4. Scholarships: A school must award at least 200 scholarships including at least 76 1/2 in football over a 2-year period.

I don't know what our current scholie numbers are. Obviously, we'd have to upgrade our football numbers. But that goes with the territory for what we would attempting to gain.

Again, am I nuts to even be wasting space on this board by bringing up this option? It doesn't seem farfetched to me at all.

[Realist]

It's probably not that far-fetched, but certainly a risk with those requirements. There's the possibility you sink money into it and it doesn't pan out, that probably is the biggest barrier.

[LUconnn]

I completely agree Sly. I'll add in that ESPN has just pulled out of their poll making the BCS that much weaker. If that system ever collapses, it puts everybody on a level playing field. Not that we'll be able to compete at that high of a level for a long time, but it does make conference affiliation that much less important for 1A football.

[jimflamesfan]

In my opinion, the Big South needs to work on getting a couple more I-AA football schools. I don't mind if their D2 at the moment. The Big South definately needs to work on keeping Coastal happy, and Coastal, LU, Winthrop, and VMI should work in this together.

To me, though, it seems like the Big South isn't making much of an effort to recruit some D-2 schools to make the move up. They need to let the new schools compete in all sports (instead of pulling what they did with Gardner Webb and Texas A&M Corpus Christi), that way they can use the automatic basketball tournament bids (guys and girls) as a selling point. I think we only have 9 basketball teams now, so if we pick up 2 D2 football schools that are willing to make the move, and add Gardner Webb in all sports, we'd have 12 basketball teams and 8 football teams.

I think that's better than having different groups of schools based on what sport is played within the conference.

Student support for sports does seem to be improving, and the girls sweet 16 appearance certainly helps as well. I'd hate to kill the momentum by trying to jump to 1A in football.

Big South - recruit more football schools! It's already been said, but that's what I think.

[jimflamesfan]

Whoops,

I did bad math. That would only give us 7 football teams. Okay, I take back what I said, don't add Gardner Webb in all sports. Pick up 3 D2 football teams willing to make the move. Let them join all sports. 12 Basketball and 8 football.

[Sly Fox]

Over on the Coastal board, a SC State alum was saying their school has some interest in joining our league for football and possibly for everything. Apparently, there's a movement amongst the HBCUs to create a HB National Championship between the champions of the MEAC & SWAC. The SC State alum says that isn't sitting well with SC State admins who have bigger aspirations in the NCAA playoffs (where they already have a top notch program).

Frankly, I find bringing over an existing I-AA with a proven track record much more enticing than waiting on DIIs to sit through probationary periods. If SC State is specifically considering the Big South, I wonder if any of the others like Hampton are also mulling the idea.

[PAmedic]

ummm- ok SLY ya got me on this one: HBCU?

[WinthropEagleFan]

Historically Black College or University

[PAmedic]

ohhhhhhhhkayyyyyyy- thanks dude (good to see ya staying on here too)

Yo, nice avatar too

[jimflamesfan]

That would be awesome if we could get SC State and maybe Hampton...
I just hope that the Big South Conference would make getting teams like this to join our conference priority #1!

[Sly Fox]

HBCUs aren't common up in PAmedic's neck of the woods. So forgive him for his ignorance in that regard. Now anything else, he's fully responsible for his own ridiculous ramblings.

And I also like the flag avatar, WEF.

[SCAR]

I think you can only see the avatar if you are logged in as a member.

[PAmedic]

sumner said:

HBCUs aren't common up in PAmedic's neck of the woods. So forgive him for his ignorance in that regard. Now anything else, he's fully responsible for his own ridiculous ramblings.

I just can't begin to describe how much you have hurt me SLY. I just need some alone time now.

[LUconn]

I stole this from the big south board. It makes me sad and also answers any questions about if we should ditch this conference or not

One question in an interview between noted college hoops stat guy Ken Pomeroy and Longwood men's basketball coach Mike Gillian:

In order to have the possibility of getting to the NCAA Tournament, you need to be in a conference. It appears the Big South would a good fit for your school. Do you have a timetable for getting into a conference?

Absolutely correct about both. We need to be in a conference (at large bids being virtually unlikely, although not impossible). The Big South is a very natural fit for Longwood - geographically, size of school, level of competition, academic profile. Almost too perfect. We are pursuing the Big South extremely hard at ALL levels and, although there is no timetable, sooner would be better. We are also looking at The Atlantic Sun as a possibility.

[WinthropEagleFan]

I'm not sure why that makes you sad...all it is is a school that wants to be a part of the league. There is nothing there that says that the league feels the same way and if the Big South wanted Longwood, they'd already have done it I would think. Savannah State has had the same desire and they aren't a part of the league either...and at least they would give the league a 6th football team. I mean, Randy Dunton could say that Liberty is looking to join the ACC, but that doesn't mean that it is going to happen.

[Sly Fox]

My feelings exactly, WEF. Its been no secret that Longwood wants to back in a league with us. But it is not going to happen unless the Big South gets really desperate. Thankfully, we left them behind with the Mason-Dixon Conference and we shouldn't be looking back.

The only decent thing to come out of Longwood was Jerome Kersey. And I'm still trying to figure out how somebody that good was at Longwood in the first place.

[LUconn]

Well, obviously he was not saying it was mutual. But in the short time I've been paying attention to this conference and looking at the past members, this just seems like something the conference and whoever is running it would pull the trigger on. Like the kid with no friends who will let you play with his nintendo if you'll hang out with him for a little while. I think this will eventually happen and I have ever since I knew of Longwood going D1.

[WinthropEagleFan]

luconn said:

Well, obviously he was not saying it was mutual. But in the short time I've been paying attention to this conference and looking at the past members, this just seems like something the conference and whoever is running it would pull the trigger on. Like the kid with no friends who will let you play with his nintendo if you'll hang out with him for a little while. I think this will eventually happen and I have ever since I knew of Longwood going D1.

But I still come back to the point of, if it was going to happen, wouldn't it have been done by now? Elon, High Point, and Birmingham-Southern were all brought in right as they were beginning their transitions into Div-1. Longwood is already through most of its transition time. Also, Elon and HPU both came in when the league needed teams (there were only 6 at the time, the Big South had to expand in order to survive). Birmingham-Southern was a smart addition based on their strong history in baseball and basketball and they've already proved that they are a stronger all-around program than half of the conference already. I'm not sure what the league gains by bringing in Longwood...I'm not sure what kind of vote is needed to bring in a new school, but I don't see enough schools supporting this move (ie. the football schools probably don't see a reason to add a non-football school and Winthrop and Birmingham-Southern probably have no interest in bringing in someone with a terrible basketball and baseball program).