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Post by PittLU on Mar 9, 2005 21:46:06 GMT -5
PA Medic - thinking LU has a lot to offer is like thinking that Charleston Southern belongs in the ACC. Sly, help me out here. LU offers nothing. I do agree that if we build the relationships with CAA schools we have a better shot at conference affiliation, but it all comes down to money. It take money to join a conference, and it is money that LU doesnt have. We need to get our program focused on marketing (one by creating a buzz, two by streamiling the uniform and logo), shore up funding, decide whether or not the path is full fledged D-I in football and move on according to plan.
Give LU five years to raise money and see if then we can afford a jump.
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Post by Sly Fox on Mar 10, 2005 1:28:18 GMT -5
As has been stated numerous times in numerous threads on this board, I am the biggest proponent alive of ditching the Big South for greener pastures. I also was a voice crying in the wilderness about us going IA a few years back when the opportunity was there before the NCAA begabn to close ranks.
But I have to admit that we are not the most appealing option for other conferences right now. We aren't dominating any revenue sports or challenging for national championships that would raise the stature of any league we'd join. We won't be confused for Stanford or Rice academically anytime soon. And despite our television exposure, we aren't a household name across the country. If we could accomplish any of these things (or better yet, a combination) then we will begin to have more options. Until then, the Big South is it for the moment.
But I sincerely believe other options are going to open up in the next 12-18 months. And we need to be successful on the field in the meantime to make us as attractive as possible.
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Post by MDIVIVVY on Mar 10, 2005 13:31:12 GMT -5
Um, guys...we're only, what, 34 years old as an institution. I ask you all, have we earned the right to be in these bigger confrences? Maybe we need to do something to make the Big South better? I would love to see us get more exposure but I also agree that we need to have a much better showing in the Big South. As to who would take us, I believe it is a moot point as I don't think we're ready. As far as SAT's our scores are up from a few years ago, how much I don't know. And yes, it was announced that we will be cutting back on admission due to lack of facilities to expand or whatnot. They are even staggering class times to do more classes. How that works I don't know logistically but it does, I guess.
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Post by Realist on Mar 10, 2005 13:59:54 GMT -5
You guys have some dreamers on this board. LU would need to dominate the major sports before another conference would consider them, and even then, the reputation Falwell carries around with him is going to hamper things. Most people only know him as the guy who said the purple teletubby is gay.
LU has won the sasser cup a bunch, but with what. Good women's programs and olympic sports. No one cares about those programs. You need to win basketball, baseball, football, and to a lesser extent soccer. Basketball had one good year with a championship, but has been pretty bad until Dunton came on. Baseball has done nothing, and football I don't know much about but CCU winning in their second season tells a lot.
CCU and WU are the more likely to make a move than LU at this point. CCU the most likely.
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Post by PAmedic on Mar 10, 2005 14:08:33 GMT -5
...the reputation Falwell carries around with him is going to hamper things... um, ok- why? money makes the world go 'round and I bet you my measly bi-weekly paycheck that if we cough up the cash, no one would give a rats' behind what Jerry's view on Teletubbies is. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMINS, BABY. |
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Post by Sly Fox on Mar 10, 2005 14:08:49 GMT -5
You say "dreamers" as if that were a bad thing. If we are to believe some on this board we are lucky to be in Big South. Why we ought to even consider dropping back down to D2 so we can be more competitive.
Come on, guys. Its big thinking that built our school int he first place. We need to recapture some of that early vigor and vision.
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Post by PAmedic on Mar 10, 2005 14:14:17 GMT -5
I'd say the ones insisting Winthrop is a household name are the true dreamers. Until I logged on here I thought it was some type of knot for a tie (Ascot, Winthrop) or a British boarding school for Charles and Di's kids.
And isn't Costal Carolina just the area you see on the weather channel where all the hurricanes hit?
ok guys- before you have a complete meltown: we're just bustin' stones here!
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Post by HarrisburgFlame on Mar 10, 2005 14:24:45 GMT -5
I think LU is better positioned than any other team in the BSC to move to the Southern, Colonial (if only they get football) or A10 from a facilities standpoint. I am a HUGE proponent of the "all sports" conference membership. Some here have argued we could split but I use VT as the example of the nightmare of split conference membership. The other issue with split conference membership is idenity.
From a facilities standpoint we are good. From an enrollment standpoint we have good numbers. Academically we're OK, the Jerry issue isn't one so I disagree with Realist on that however...
I do agree with realist in that we need to win something in the BSC consistently i.e. Football and MENS basketball We need to put the focus into making the most out of our situation regardless of the downside. The BSC has afforded us a football conference vs. being an independent and scratching for games. Granted with the limited league schedule we still scrape for games but what is the alternative at the moment? We need the alums to step up and support the program with $$$ - but most importantly we need to win the BSC in the 2 sports that really count - MBB and FB...
Adding wrestling back to the mix will help. Baseball will hold it's own. our WBB will be an asset for us if we have talks with other conferences.
I think it's good to look ahead and have a plan but we need to take care of the here and now. Is the BSC perfect - nope. Is it our best option at the moment - no doubt until we can prove otherwise.
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Post by Realist on Mar 10, 2005 14:44:54 GMT -5
I'm not saying dreaming is a bad thing, but before you realize the dreams, you have to do some work, some on this board think that a move should/could be imminent, but that's not (pardon) realistic.
Some other points:
Some seem to harp on LU's facilities, but they are not the best in the conference. CCU's football stadium is better, and WU's basketball and baseball complexes are by far better, and facilities as a whole are better. Once they complete the new track and field complex, it won't even be a question. LU's olympic sports have the best facilities in the conference now, and it shows by their recruited athletes.
Lu does have the advantage of offering the most sports in the conference, which is the advantage of having Falwell's money, it's kind of a double edged sword, you get the money, but you also get the questionable rep.
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Post by PAmedic on Mar 10, 2005 14:47:38 GMT -5
...but you also get the questionable rep. Still not gettin' ya dude- are you trying to say that people hate Notre Dame b/c they disagree w/ the Pope? (Now THERE'S a comparison!!) |
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Post by HarrisburgFlame on Mar 10, 2005 14:53:18 GMT -5
you're flat out wrong. Winthrop has a nice cozy clean little gym - nothing special in my opinion. Our's isn't that special either but it's bigger thus providing the opportunity for more revenue (given we win and fill the joint). CCU's football stadium is nice and new but as of now it's barely bigger than a DIII stadium. What's the capacity RIGHT NOW 6,000 or so? Bridgewater College seats 4,000. Our stadium can seat 15,000 - and we have a FOOTBALL complex going up in the EZ as we speak. I'll give you WU's baseball complex over our's but that's it and when Winthrop gets a football team then in my mind can they be considered a REAL college.
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Post by Realist on Mar 10, 2005 14:57:03 GMT -5
Umm, I could be wrong but didn't Falwell found LU? I'm pretty sure the Pope didn't found Notre Dame, and he certainly isn't around campus there, or appear on TV offering scholarships to the school. I don't know enough about Falwell to make a judgement, but I do know he's ruffled a few feathers in his day and his rep might possibly hurt a conference move. Remember, a lot of conferences are a good ole boys club, unless you're like them, they won't accept you. Not saying it's right, just the way it is. Example: Southern conference is slowly morphing into a private school league. How else did elon get in----it certainly wasn't what they offered athletically.
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Post by PAmedic on Mar 10, 2005 15:01:16 GMT -5
ok- I do see where you're going w/ that about the old boys'club. Unfortunately there are often very specious arguments about facilities, etc, made against LU by those who flat out just don't agree w/ or like our conservative values. That's what sets us on edge: we get tired of hearing the same old garbage- sorry to be defensive!
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Post by Realist on Mar 10, 2005 15:01:46 GMT -5
I think it's probably been awhile since some of you have seen WU's complex. It's built a new baseball field, upgraded the basketball facility, built a new tennis complex, and is about to finish a new track and field complex---all in the last 7-8 years.
As for basketball---LU seats more, but only like 1000 more, but it has a run down feel to it inside compared to everything being brand new at WU, plus the behind the scenes facilities are much better. Just ask the recruits---I think it's pretty obvious.
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Post by PAmedic on Mar 10, 2005 15:03:27 GMT -5
yeah maybe- but its still....Winthrop! (what, college- institute- A&M- Tech?)
KIDDING! DOWN BOY!
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Post by HarrisburgFlame on Mar 10, 2005 15:07:37 GMT -5
The Vines Center seats 9,000 that's about a 3,000 seat difference. I was at Winthrop 3 years ago and it's a nice little place. Winthrop has a great coach in Marshall and I hope WU wins a game in the tourney but I think LU has a MUCH better chance long term of moving upward and upward before Winthrop does. Like I said I'll give you the baseball facility but if you ask me - conferences are going to be looking toward LU for football before they give a rip about Winthrop's tennis facility.
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Post by Realist on Mar 10, 2005 15:11:20 GMT -5
Not trying to start a fight here, just offering some perspective. I wouldn't mind seeing WU jump out of the conference either for greener pastures, especially in basketball, where if we played conference teams with a little better RPI we'd be sitting on a higher seed than a 14. But out of the schools that probably are thinking about jumping (and WU is third on that list in desire I'm sure) LU, WU and CCU all have some pretty big barriers in their path right now. LU for reasons discussed, WU because of no football, and CCU for their academics and basketball.
Make no mistake though, those three keep this conference from being a complete joke compared to what else is in this league, though Birmingham Southern was a good addition and will compete.
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Post by Realist on Mar 10, 2005 15:18:56 GMT -5
PAMedic,
I'll offer this to you as a come back, on the radio the other day in the charlotte region they were discussing WU's dance appearance and asked who else competed in the league, they ran down the schools and one of the announcers asked what/who/where Liberty is. The other guy said "I think it's a church camp somwhere in west virginia."
Don't kid yourself, both schools have pretty much the same name recognition, with WU maybe a little higher b/c of the repeated trips to the tourney. I travel a good deal for work and it's surprising to find out how much that boosts name recognition.
Yeesh, I need to get back to work.
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Post by PAmedic on Mar 10, 2005 16:02:40 GMT -5
church camp in W VA!
"I don't care who ya are- now thats funny right there"
you're right, its all a matter of perspective! and I should be working right now too! People not breathing and stuff- what a pain.
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Post by V88 on Mar 10, 2005 18:31:27 GMT -5
I think the concern is that the Big south just isn't going anywhere. According to some Myrtle Beach media reports, Coastal is looking to the Southern Conference. There are also plans to build a new arena in Conway, SC and it will be the home for Coastal basketball. I don't think Coastal will be in the conference much longer. The Big South should be working to make Gardner Webb a full member. That should have been done a few years ago.
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Post by SCAR on Mar 10, 2005 19:18:51 GMT -5
Now this is a great thread! I tell you this guys, The ACC was not always the ACC. The Southern Conference (back in the 50's and 60's) was one of the top conferences in the country. This may sound a little unrealistic but maybe we should think about making the Big South a better conference than trying to join someone elses party! Look at the MAC in football and to some extent basketball. They are on the map big time and that is from the past 8-10 years of quality performances on the playing field by Marshall, Miami Oh etc. The CAA has come on in recent years because of hoops but 15 years ago I don't even know if that conference was talked about in Virginia let alone accross America. All I am saying is there is a lot a ways to skin a cat. Making the BSC better might be a better option than defecting....Realist, I have to tell you the Vines Center is still better than Winthrop Coliseum but I do like the improvements made to the building. Vines looks better on TV and sitting in the audience has a much brighter feel. WU does have a nice Athletic complex area though and the Coliseum does look more like a basketball venue in terms of layout and office space etc.....As far as name recognition, I don't think anyone even knows what state Winthrop is in! Going to the big dance only lets people talk about Winthrop for a week or 2 but people talk about Falwell and Liberty year round good or bad. Those radio guys have to make smart comments like "Liberty being a Bible camp in WV" because that is what they are paid to do. I will bet they know where it is though for real. I will say that Marshall has done for the Big South what no one else has in terms of winning and representing the conference well. Good stuff though guys.
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Post by PAmedic on Mar 10, 2005 19:29:22 GMT -5
now SCAR, everyone knows that Winthrop is located in Utah.
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Post by HarrisburgFlame on Mar 10, 2005 19:57:53 GMT -5
said it far better than I could. Right on the money.
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Post by Sly Fox on Mar 10, 2005 20:08:10 GMT -5
I think must of us have resigned ourselves ot life in the Big South in the short term. And as long as we are in this pathetic league, we should do our best to make the most of it.
Name recognition for LU is nowhere near what it should be considering its place in society. Perhaps our new marketing friends can help adress this issue. It never ceases to amaze me how many kids who are definite LU material that have never heard about a devoutly Christian school with D-I sports. We haven't done a good job spreading the word for a school our size.
As for Scar's MAC comparisons, its a little bit of apples & oranges to the Big South. The MAC benefited from several factors such as scholarship reductions and bowl eligibility requirements that as a I-A conference they were in position to enjoy. Since we drug our feet on making that move a decade ago, we have paid the price. Football success is often a prelude to hoops success for a conference. And marshall helped build the league's rep based on taking players with drug/grade/legal problems that no one else in the country would touch.
Winthrop has ZERO name recognition outside of the Carolinas. But they really shouldn't. They are a regional school like Coastal Carolina. We have a national student & alumni population.
Let me second Scar's comments about what Marshall has done. Whether or not Winthrop maintains the momentum once he leaves (and you know it is just a matter of time) is yet to be determined.
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Post by Realist on Mar 11, 2005 11:10:22 GMT -5
I agree with some things stated, but not all. Making the Big South a better conference is a great idea in theory, but as long as we keep accepting D1 transition schools it's just not going to get much better, and I think they are going to continue to pursue those type of schools like longwood, etc, especially if Coastal leaves. I think Coastal leaving is a little more far fetched in terms of short term than one stated, they have made no secret of their quest to get in the southern, but I just don't see that private school dominated league accepting a poor academic public school, regardless of what it offers athletically, and only their baseball program would be immediately competitive. Basketball would retain it's niche as a bottom feeder and football wouldn't compete immediately there. But there have been rumors of a Socon break-up for awhile so who knows.
As for name recognition, I travel the country pretty frequently and I can tell you no school in the Big South has much more name recognition than another. LU may have its circles among followers of Falwell, but most people in the nation have no idea the two are even connected, or even know LU exists, much like WU, other than they fill in the one or two seed in their bracket over them.
As for the facilities, it's kind of apples and apples, it's really just a matter of opinion. You would take Vines, but I don't think you'd find a WU person that wouldn't take the coliseum.
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Post by HarrisburgFlame on Mar 11, 2005 13:19:41 GMT -5
I travel coast to coast and a little bit internationally and I am plesantly surprised at the number of people who know about LU. Typically it's followed with a comment (some good some bad) about Jerry! LU should have an advantage in that Live from Liberty and the Old Time Gospel Hour are broadcast coast to coast.
The only time I've ever seen Winthrop mentioned nationally (outside of sports) was an announcement that the WWE was going to wrestle at the Winthrop Coliseum - honest truth!
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Post by SCAR on Mar 11, 2005 15:07:33 GMT -5
Realist,
You forgot Coastal Carolina's soccer team is pretty good too but we get what you were saying. I think you make some great points actually.
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Post by PittLU on Mar 12, 2005 12:03:50 GMT -5
I have to parrot H'Burg Flame fan. I travel nationally as well, and anytime I speak of Liberty, most people know about Liberty through Falwell.
The Big South is and always will be a lower level mid-major. Anytime you have directional schools, your will be branded mid-major. For all the MAC has went through, you still have Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan and the like. As far as the MAC goes as well, Marshall was probably the only school in the nation who would take Randy Moss. They built their program with their fingers crossed. I dont forsee Big South schools growing the way of the MAC schools did. I dont think they would want to grow that way.
We can argue all day long about who will move first - WU, CCU or LU. The thing that sets LU apart from the others is the national exposure and the broad (though still relatively small) alumni base. LU has had from day one a national alumni base. Winthrop (until I believe 20 years ago) was an all girls school. Even though LU is 34, it has had the same focus since day one and draws the same type of student. Do you think the previous alumni base of WU give a rip about sports?
Even though LU is differentiated, that in no means qualifies them to leave the BSC anytime soon. I honestly dont know what to say when it comes to moving conferences other than LU has the potential to be a Notre Dame type, but will have to pay its dues in a low level conference until it can get its act together. I guess that is better than being an independent.......
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