|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Sept 12, 2005 21:51:34 GMT -5
it seemed to me Hout had the program going in the right direction when he was canned. I share your opinion on this one however like Sly told me - that's been almost 20 years ago - time to move on.
|
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Sept 12, 2005 22:20:33 GMT -5
I was just gonna say- "oh NO, another Morgan Hout fan, wait til H'BURG sees THIS"
Don't get him started. And, for the record- I watched Coach Hout's teams too, and was less impressed than some OTHER people here- key phrase: MOVIN' ON.
|
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Sept 13, 2005 14:13:27 GMT -5
Hey Medic:
As soon as my workload lets up bit I am going to post my historical perspective on Flames football for all the Morgan Hout fans out there!
|
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Sept 13, 2005 14:17:41 GMT -5
I'll quick hit up Staples for xtra ink for my jetprinter.
|
|
|
|
Post by LUconn on Sept 13, 2005 14:40:13 GMT -5
Alright look, I'm tired of seeing the same stuff being rehashed and the same points keep coming up. But nobody seems to take any other point of view. Lets look at a program we all know very well now: The University of Connecticut.
They were AA up until 2 years ago, which is why we got them scheduled anyway. As a former resident of that state and a player at the High School level, I know from experience that, that football team was never any good. I'll admit they were further along than we are but still nothing spectacular. They brought in Skip Holtz and many others to no avail. The Big East gave them a limited invitation and they had to act fast to go 1A. By then Randy Edsall had been brought in and he seems to be a pretty darn good coach. Anyway, their 2nd year of 1A and they're in a bowl game anticipating a shalacking of the Flames the following year. Now they obviously have advantages such as being a public instituion, and the state having nothing else locally so they have to support them, and also a BSC conference right off the bat but my point here is being good on the AA level is not a requirement to be good in the A level. They're not related and we need to get past that and worry about the other factors. I'm sure many AA teams could put up 30+ on Buffalo but they're still AA.
|
|
|
|
Post by LUconn on Sept 13, 2005 14:48:51 GMT -5
I'll also agree with Chris in that this is such a process you can't solely focus on success at the lower levels. We've got to do some multi-tasking and prepare for the future. I just can't believe how short-sighted some of you are being and I hope that our AD is not following that line of thinking. If you put everything in place success will follow
|
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Sept 13, 2005 14:50:28 GMT -5
LUConn:
I think if you go back through the entire thread you will note that a few of us pointed out that it was more about $$$ and infrastructure than wins and losses.
UConn is kind of a bad example to use as making the Jump to I-A - they are a state school as you mentioned and had a state governement pony up major funds to get them a stadium and facilities. They are the expection not the rule.
|
|
|
|
Post by LUconn on Sept 13, 2005 15:14:03 GMT -5
Right, I know we can't compare at that aspect but I've seen so many people say "we stink, yadda yadda" for reasons why we can't make that jump and it keeps coming up but I just want it to be known that it doesnt matter that we stink right now. Well it matters to us as fans but it doesnt matter to the 1A grand scheme.
|
|
|
|
Post by eddantes on Sept 13, 2005 16:11:36 GMT -5
Well hold on, if the "grand plan" is to jump to I-A status for the sake of jumping to the I-A status, and promptly getting embarrassed in front of 45,000 fans six times a year (I say six instead of 12 because Liberty won't be able to get that many to a home game until the day before Rapture... and yes, I'm a pre-tribulationist), then so be it.
Since 1999 (my freshman year), this is how Liberty fared against I-A opponents
Marshall - 63-3
South Florida - 44-6
Central Florida - 63-0
Central Florida - 48-17
Akron - 49-21
Toledo - 49-3
Bowling Green - 62-3
Kent State - 38-10.
UConn - 59-0
If you added our total score in those 9 games, and pitted them against Marshall... we would have tied. All in all, we've been annihilated 475-63. And you can expect a LOT more of that if you want to make the jump to I-A without making some serious changes to the program (for starters, getting rid of Karcher, and leaving a suitcase full of $50s in the cars of the nation's top 10 high school players).
|
|
|
|
Post by Sly Fox on Sept 13, 2005 18:57:37 GMT -5
Ed - I think you are comparing apples to oranges. You care showing how under I-AA restrictions we fared against I-A programs with more scholarships and more prestige in order to attract better athletes. While we obviously have PLENTY of room for improvement on the I-AA level, we are handcuffed to an extent due to the I-AA guidelines that limit expenditures in order to keep costs in check. If we were at full 85 schollies with the I-A status to hang our hats on during recruiting, we would field a much more competitive team. Would be be getting thumped regularly at first? Of course. But that's why these types of plans are very longterm for us.
As for the UConn comparisons, we are in completely different scenarios. Bob Kraft's maneuver to get a new stadium in Foxboro created the stadium in East Hartford that the Huskies call home. And the odds of a BCS conference extending us an invite anytime soon are less than zero. But I agree with your assertion that winning at I-AA is not a prerequisite for moving up.
In the meantime, I am enjoying our time spent at I-AA level. We just need to use our current resources more effectively. I'm sure Karcher realizes the pressure he is under (contract extension withstanding).
|
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Sept 14, 2005 5:54:40 GMT -5
a sure sign of the kiss of death for a coaching career is a CONTRACT EXTENSION. underperfomance this year and he's gone by Christmas. PRINT IT.
|
|
|
|
Post by eddantes on Sept 14, 2005 15:38:39 GMT -5
Sly, it is true that our records against I-A schools cannot accurately predict how we'd fare against them, if we were to make that jump. After all, we have less scholarships than them and we don't have the "we play in I-A" pitch to use to potential recruits. But I think that it goes to show just how much better those teams are than us.
But if you compare us against I-AA opponents - those in the top 25 - the results are equally pitiful.
Since Karcher first took the reigns, Liberty is yet to beat a ranked opponent, sporting an 0-8 record. Those teams play under the same rules and restrictions that we do, and we're not exactly coming out on top.
Actually, we're coming out as losers. Eight times, to be exact.
=====
I saw that Liberty athletics is going to be collecting donations to give to Katrina victims. I'm wondering, can we give Karcher back to Tulane?
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevev on Sept 14, 2005 15:52:54 GMT -5
On top of the fact he has not beaten a Top 25 teams is that a majority of those losses are blowouts. Unacceptable if you ask me. The 1A comparison may be a little unfair except for the magnitude of the blowouts. My question is this. If Karcher gets fired do we still have to pay him salary due to the extended contract.
|
|
|
|
Post by eddantes on Sept 14, 2005 15:56:37 GMT -5
I'm sure all of that is spelled out in the contract, of which no one knows the details of. Can we get a News & Advance reporter to FOIA this?
|
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Sept 14, 2005 16:16:04 GMT -5
EDD and Steve - we are all frustrated to a degree I think. But this year is still young and I think the next 8 games will tell the story. Don't break out the fire Karcher signs just yet. Give me a chance in 05 and then let's evaluate.
That said if you feel helpless about the situation - pony up some buck to the Flames Club so you can feel like you are doing something about the curent state of affairs - if you're already giving - step up a notch or disregard my request.
We're all in this together! Go Flames.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris Lang on Sept 14, 2005 16:48:54 GMT -5
I'm sure all of that is spelled out in the contract, of which no one knows the details of. Can we get a News & Advance reporter to FOIA this? Unfortunately, no. Since LU is a private institution, they are not obligated to give that information out to the public. If we're talking UVa or Tech, it's a whole different story. That's why it's very difficult to pin down numbers in stories on LU. |
|
|
|
Post by Bald Spot on Sept 14, 2005 17:39:53 GMT -5
20 years ago is a long time ago for the so called Hout fans but the following illustrates how far our program has fallen: When was the last time we had an LU grad in the ProBowl, an LU player selected in the first round of the NFL draft, an LU grad starting on a Super Bowl winning team? An SI reporter traveling with the team to witness our only defeat of a top 25 ranked IA team?
All but one of the players I'm refering to were recruited pre-Hancock Bldg or Williams Stadium.
It just would be nice to think we were moving forward, not backward.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevev on Sept 14, 2005 18:56:49 GMT -5
Yes I remember those so called glory days when the future looked so bright and the team according to some publications was destined to be a 1AA power for years to come. I think that the answer to some of the above questions were Eric Green, and Dwayne Carswell. And yes I do remember the big upset over Eastern Michigan and other top 1AA teams. We were only a small step to making the playoffs during those years but the playoffs never happened.
Concerning Karchers status it might be nice to know that the school isn't obligated to pay him for the full 5 years if he got the ax but I don't really know the whole situation. Right now I will see what transpires over the next 2 weeks and then see where we stand on the Karcher issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevev on Sept 14, 2005 19:23:59 GMT -5
I have sent my contribution in to the Flames Club last week but not as much as in the past since I have some disagreements with how some things are being done and the fact I don't go to football games in Lynchburg anymore due to performance and conference issues that hopefully will be rectified in the near future. I just wanted some of the people on this board to know that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bald Spot on Sept 14, 2005 20:19:42 GMT -5
Wayne Haddix led the NFL in int's returned for TD's one year with Tamp Bay and went to the Pro Bowl as well. Freddie Banks used to catch passes from Dan Marino on MNF. I got to watch Richard Shelton return an INT against the Browns and do the Nestea plunge into the endzone. The crowd at Three Rivers went crazy. But enough of that.
My guess is Karcher got the extension with what turned out to be a lame duck AD so the new one could eventually bring in his own guy. I'm not too worried about the contract situation. Contracts at Liberty generally are the same as in the NFL - good on the day they were signed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris Lang on Sept 14, 2005 20:23:10 GMT -5
Well, Thom Park was Karcher's agent, so don't hold your breath, kids.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sly Fox on Sept 14, 2005 21:32:46 GMT -5
If I were to venture a guess, I'm sure there was some sort of trade-off to get a 5-year extension. I'm sure there was a buyout written into the deal that would keep the school from having to dig too deep should they decide a change of leadership is needed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sly Fox on Sept 14, 2005 21:35:15 GMT -5
Bald Spot - Those players were my vintage (with the exception of Banks who was a rookie my freshman year). You might add Mark Mathis of the then St. Louis Cardinals.
|
|
|
|
Post by BaldSpot on Sept 15, 2005 6:06:46 GMT -5
I always thought Mathis was the better corner at LU because he was always making plays but he was short and Wayne had the better combine numbers. The Giants took Haddix right after one of their Super Bowl wins. The following year Wayne came back and worked out in the Hancock bldg. I remember him telling us how Phil Simms kinda took him under his wing because Phil also had to make the transition from a small school to the NY spotlight. It's was a nice story at least.
Anyway, let's hope Mr Park has an Asst AD opening next year for his former client because it's just not happening with this group.
|
|
|
|
Post by SCAR on Sept 15, 2005 9:31:51 GMT -5
You guys are forgetting about Rennie Jones (played for Philly for a few years), Kelvin Edwards with the Cowbosy of the 80's and of course my boy James McKnight who I believe was a Rutigliano guy along with Carswell. Sam had major pro connections and still does (Tampa Bay Bucs organization). Some may recall I ran into coach Sam at Krogers one Sunday morning this past winter when he was visiting his son Paul. He can still talk and is extremely interesting with the media. Chris Lang you would have loved covering this team when Sam was the coach. Nothing but sound bites and good 1 liners. I think Sam's 9-2 team of 1990 (Houts kids) were the best team ever to play for LU football. They should have made the playoffs with that record but as an independent, they were shut out.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sly Fox on Sept 15, 2005 10:03:00 GMT -5
No, we didn't forget Special K. He was from the Hout years as well. Back when I used to cover the Cowboys (stomach turning just thinking about it) I used to see Kelvin every year when they had the reunion of former players at halftime of one of the games. He still looked like he could play. But he played as much for the Saints as he did the Cowboys.
Of course, I got a kick out of having an LU connection in James during his brief stay in Big D. It'd be great if I had another Flame to cover here in Houston.
And Scar is correct that the '90 team was our best ever. Its sad to say a 9-2 team would hold that distinction. But its true.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevev on Sept 15, 2005 10:30:03 GMT -5
I believe the year was 1989, not 1990 is the team you are referring to. The team that beat Eastern Michigan and Eastern Illinois and lost to Southwest Missouri to end their playoff bid after a 6-0 start. Their record that year was 7-3 and it was the first year we qualifid for the 1AA playoffs. Some of the better players on that team were Eric Green, Paul Johnson, Charles McCray, Donald Smith, Eric Carroll, Pat Nelson, Tim Smith, Jeff Curtis, Jeff Hatcher, and Leroy Kinard. Please correct me if I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Sept 15, 2005 17:28:31 GMT -5
I definitely remember Eric, Paul Johnson, Kinard and McCray. 7-3 seems right, and I think we even cracked the top something or other in the polls for a bit; I just can't remember if we qualified for the playoffs that year or not. Mental block (and I'm old now)
|
|
|
|
Post by Bald Spot on Sept 15, 2005 20:04:39 GMT -5
We went 8-3 in '89 in Houts last year. The three losses were by a combined 5 pts. Two losses would have got us into the playoffs, with three we were on the bubble and didn't get a lot of outside support being an independent. I remember driving to Towson for the last game of the year during Thanksgiving and they had a guy named Dave Meggett. Fortunately it had rained all night and their field was all slop but what a player in college.
In '90 under Sam we were ranked as high as 9th in the country but lost 3 of the last four to finish 7-3 and out of the playoffs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevev on Sept 15, 2005 20:59:58 GMT -5
1988 was the last Hout year. Oh well! I remember that year too. A breakout year after getting adjusted to 1AA competition. Beat Youngtown 29-0 and almost beat #2 Western Illinois in homecoming. I remember Richard Shelton, Dwight Jones, and Mickey Paige in addition to the list earlier. Went to the Towson game that year in the rain to end the season. Contained Meggett well, had a much better team than Towson but it took a stop in the red zone to get the win. I believe that if LU kept Hout as coach we would have been a consistent playoff contender for years. But you know what happened.
|
|
