grm
Full Member
Posts: 158
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Post by grm on Jan 3, 2007 23:23:11 GMT -5
O.K. "Offseason" accepted, and thank you for it. Now, let the guy & his staff have the opportunity to win the job - then, define respectability and blast away at the end of the season if you feel he has not accomplished it. I do believe this is great talent, and I do believe that this is a great staff. I'll say it - and then, I'll stand by it at the end of the year. I think continually nipping at his heels during the season, while at once maintaining that you want the best for the University, is self-contradictory. I will respect responsible criticism during the season, and then outspoken opinion/commentary after the season.
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Post by Guest on Jan 3, 2007 23:34:04 GMT -5
I think continually nipping at his heels during the season, while at once maintaining that you want the best for the University, is self-contradictory. maybe he, like others believe he is not right for the university.
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Post by Aaa Gee on Jan 4, 2007 7:55:00 GMT -5
I think our friend Thingy has it right on all his points. What was it--a little over 15 months ago--and even two years ago before the ill-timed extension--that most of us on here were looking for Karcher to go?? I ask you this--what is so different (other than a big south title, with some of Mel's players) from what Dunton has done compared to Karcher?? I have seen the light, gentlemen, and a win over perhaps the sorriest team in the league Saturday won't change that.
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Post by Rocketfan on Jan 4, 2007 8:30:11 GMT -5
I think our friend Thingy has it right on all his points. What was it--a little over 15 months ago--and even two years ago before the ill-timed extension--that most of us on here were looking for Karcher to go?? I ask you this--what is so different (other than a big south title, with some of Mel's players) from what Dunton has done compared to Karcher?? I have seen the light, gentlemen, and a win over perhaps the sorriest team in the league Saturday won't change that. Wow....so tell me which one or Mels players was that big of an impact on the championship team.....note, this should be really good....
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Post by Rocketfan on Jan 4, 2007 8:39:33 GMT -5
This is something that should be brought back up for several reasons..... #1: We haven't won on the road in almost two years... #2: We have had 1 Winning season since he has been coach 03-04 (18-15) #3: The number of players who did not pan out/left is outrageous #4: No attendance #5: He cannot keep assistants #6: No evidence of improving the program #7: This is his 5th year, and we are still perceived by the basketball world as one of the worst in the NCAA First off i agree we need to improve on the road, and i think the Big South schedule will tell a lot about the heart of this team. The point about players not panning out or left is funny though, Mel had some recruiting classes in the top 50 in the nation i believe and each year those players never showed, i take it you weren't there to witness that, cause it was sure sad. While attendance may be down this year, it was only influenced up when i worked for Proto and we gave away everything but the kitchen sink at games ( and we lost 1 home game that whole year i believe in like October to a mid-major that i can't think of currently). I mean why can't we sell out a game in Feb when we have a 11-1 home record or whatever? That on the fans and still is to this day. Assistants float around in college basketball all the time as head coaching oppurtunities or other oppurtunites come up, i think this point is just laughable. How long do you think he should keep all the same assitants 5-10 years? While our record doesn't show it, i think this team is improving. The talent is sure better as we all know, and its just about finding the right chemistry. Tell me Alex isn't going to be better than say Jason Sarchet?? Hopefully getting beat up on a bit will toughen these guys up and light a fire for the 07 half of the schedule.
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Post by LUconn on Jan 4, 2007 8:43:08 GMT -5
How can you, as a fan, blame anybody but yourself for the lack of attendance?
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Post by Aaa Gee on Jan 4, 2007 8:51:03 GMT -5
Wow....so tell me which one or Mels players was that big of an impact on the championship team.....note, this should be really good.... Jason Sarchet, Louvon Sneed, Phil Ward, Glyn Turner, Mats Persson--off the top of my head--but most were role players to Blair, Gabe and Dees--but still were contributors. Now, here is an interesting fact--Are not Blair and Dunton the ONLY folks left from that team? Coaches, trainers, players? And we wonder why we are what we are? Makes you think.
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Post by jmthingyens on Jan 4, 2007 9:28:54 GMT -5
Arkansas St beat us at the buzzer at home that year...i think attendance can be attributed to the coach because no one wants to see a team get beat at home....that championship team they depended alot on Luvon Sneed and Jason Sarchet.
Also, bring me a stat from a web site from someone who can prove we ever had a top 50 recruiting class. It is conceivable, but I would like to know when that actually happened.
Assistant coaches leave when better jobs open up....How many of our assistants moved up to another D-1 school? Those that left, might have been looking for a way out. not all assistants leave after two years.....
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Post by SCAR on Jan 4, 2007 9:41:34 GMT -5
d**ens, I know we had a couple of top 50 classes as ranked by the scouting services that we subscribe to back in the 90's. I believe Mel had one or 2 as well his first couple of years. Bob Gibbons is one scouting report that usually ranks Liberty players favorably....Phillip Ward did not play on the Championship team. The only Hankinson guys left on the 04 team were Turner, Sarchet, Sneed and Pearson. The key players were all RD's guys. Blair, Dees, Woodson, Mantlo, Monceaux, Martin, Lightbourne. However they would not have won it without the contributions of Sneed and Sarchet. I don't know what all that means but I did want to set the record straight just a bit.
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Post by jmthingyens on Jan 4, 2007 10:03:06 GMT -5
SCAR i never said Ward played for that team. I said it could have been the case for top 50 classes, but I did not think of any. Thanks for clearing that up. I know Blair, Dees, Martin, Woodson, Mantlo were big for that team......I just remember our post game was good with the two Hankinson left overs.
Bob Gibbons ranked Josh Heffner, a student at Liberty in the top 100 of North Carolina players.....I love Bob Gibbons....he also gace much love to Seth thingyey
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Post by Funny Stuff on Jan 4, 2007 10:07:30 GMT -5
Man there is a lot of cursing going on in this thread ;D ;D
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Post by Aaa Gee on Jan 4, 2007 10:39:02 GMT -5
The point is that he SHOULD be on a very hot seat. Almost total turnover in players, coaches, and support staff over the past 3 years. Nowhere near where he promised. Fan support dwindling. Heck, Satan couldn't be on a hotter seat.
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Post by ATrain on Jan 4, 2007 11:49:31 GMT -5
Well, I think Satan is on the hotter seat, but....
Since my freshman year, we have gone from conference champs to conference chumps. Last year I think was an aberration with the departure of Dees and a big hole in the center, sort of a compound fracture if you will. I say if Dunton has over .500 in the conference, he deserves one more year to continue fixing our non-conference issues. We have already seen an improvement from last year, as I doubt we would've beaten ECU or St. Francis at home.
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Post by prototype on Jan 4, 2007 12:13:47 GMT -5
OK - you all have finally struck a nerve with me. What’s new Who are you guys? Sophomore in College? Senior? 1st Year Intern at Jiffy Lube? Your mom stills call you every night to make sure you didn't drink anything after 6. It's like this board is full of Basketball professionals/Analyst for ESPN. What team are you watching? What school do you think this is? Have you ever played a minute in your life?
The teams not good this year? This hands down might be the best talent we have ever had on the floor at one time. Argue with me - go ahead. But, 1994 we were so good, we won the BS and almost beat NC. That team was a great TEAM, but no where as talented as the guys we have now. Schedule? Come on - are you the same guys that ragged on the Baseball team too, until they lost in the championship game because they ran out of gas? You know what kills me - it's like LU just lost to Lynchburg College, Sweet Briar, Lady of the Lake College - WE LOST TO SETON HALL, BYU, ORAL ROBERTS, SOME TEAM THAT WON THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP AND HAS ALL THERE PLAYERS BACK, LIPSCOMB, BUFFALO.... Give me a break! And you know what - we played well in most of those games. Yeah, we lost them all, but so what - it's not about the record at this point - watch the team (Oh that's right, you probably haven’t been to a game this year – you’re boycotting because you want Coach K to come over to coach at Liberty). This team will be ready for BS play and that is ALL that matters. It’s about being ready to play Asheville, High Point, Radford and so on. You all wrote in the beginning of the year on how bad the schedule was, then you complained that we can’t win a game – you can’t make your mind up anyway.
OK Coach Dunton? You knew I would get to this. Again, has anyone coached before? And I’m not talking about coaching your little sister in the 5 and under YMCA league. My guess is NO. Do you know how to hard it is to build an engine from scratch, install a full bathroom in a house, build a rocket to send all these fair-weather fans to the Mars? I sure don’t, but I would never tell a Mechanic, Plumber, or Rocket Scientist how to do their job or constantly be criticizing him or her because they didn’t see success every day at work. Dunton has brought in the best talent to Liberty and that is not easy. Brewington, Bannister, Blair, Martin, Jenkins, Baker, Smith, McLean, Lightbourne, etc… Dunton is very involved in the Community. And you know what – that means a lot. Very little coaches do as much as he does for the community, like the Reading Club. Does things like Faith in the Furnace for the students. I know that’s all good, but he’s not winning – Blah Blah Blah. The team works hard, we have great talent, and why don’t you wait until after the complete season to turn in a report card and fail him on this season. As a fan – I don’t see what else he can do, or anyone else can do. Last I looked Greg Oden, Josh McRoberts, Tyler Hansbrough, Mayo weren’t putting us on top of their list.
Be patient and stop being such fair-weather fans. And new policy on FlameFans – you can’t post on firing a coach or how bad a team is at LU, until you have been to an actual game. Listening to the audio for the Florida game about Liberty plays in front of 500 fans – that’s embarrassing (To Kevin’s and LU’s defense – that was unfair – it’s was Thanksgiving week and the students were on break and to make it worse – I believe it was raining). I don’t care if we go 0-24, I would still be out supporting our athletes – everyone else should also.
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Post by Aaa Gee on Jan 4, 2007 12:53:31 GMT -5
Again, I ask. Why should Coach Dunton be judged any differently than Karcher? Karcher did a lot of great spirtual development things, too. Karcher brought in a lot of great talent, too. Karcher could not win with what he had, either. Karcher did not have all the turnover.
The turnover is what smells fishy to me. If anyone here was in a supervisory role and had that much turnover from staff and employees, every single one of us would be gone, no matter what type of window dressing we put out there.
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Post by LUconn on Jan 4, 2007 13:20:22 GMT -5
Karcher never won anything. Dunton had a 2 or 3 good years (in his 5th).
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if we were on Mayo's list. He's got half of DI on his intersted list. That guy will go anywhere for the right price.
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Post by Aaa Gee on Jan 4, 2007 14:10:36 GMT -5
Mayo signed early with USC.
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Post by LUconn on Jan 4, 2007 14:15:24 GMT -5
Right but he's verbaled to a few different places at a few different times. We'll see if committing somehwere lasts. I still think he winds up at KState.
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Post by prototype on Jan 4, 2007 14:53:10 GMT -5
Again, I ask. Why should Coach Dunton be judged any differently than Karcher? Karcher did a lot of great spirtual development things, too. Karcher brought in a lot of great talent, too. Karcher could not win with what he had, either. Karcher did not have all the turnover. The turnover is what smells fishy to me. If anyone here was in a supervisory role and had that much turnover from staff and employees, every single one of us would be gone, no matter what type of window dressing we put out there. Karcher - Talent? What talent did Karcher bring in? Don't say Gado - because he didn't even recognize the talent - he started like 3 games after 2 running backs got hurt. Karcher wasn't fired because he didn't win, he was fired because he couldn't do the things beyond coaching. He couldn't talk to the press about football, he couldn't breakdown plays. He did nothing for the community. He seemed to be a great guy. One story that I can tell - everyone was there , so it's not gossip. At a Flames Club meeting at Billy Joes years ago, the meeting after we came back to beat VMI he was asked by several reporters that were there (didn't come normally) to breakdown the game and what halftime adjustments he made. He stood up there and said I made no adjustments at halftime, (we were down big - what coach would admit this) all he would say was that win was ordained by God. The reporter asked again, what players step up to help change things around. Again - Karcher said - no one - this game was ordained by God. The other reporter there, said OK coach we know the win was ordained by God, what particular players did God bless in the second half? He still stuck with the whole ordained by God routine. It was embarrassing. They wanted a coaches answer or trying to give Karcher an excellent opportunity to give some credit to the players fighting there tails off and refusing to lose. Dunton will clearly express his beliefs, but he knows what his job is here and takes it seriously. The players didn't like Karcher, and say what you will - the players like Dunton and he loves his players. Turnover - Are you kidding me with this? Coaches leave in every program and a lot of the coaches were let go, they did not quit. We have the best coaching staff in Liberty History now. We have a coach with ACC History, a coach with a long history in California, a coach from Nigeria with tons of recruiting weight. This staff is good and has allowed Dunton to concentrate more on coaching. Have you ever spoken to an assistant coach at Liberty? Dunton?
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Post by kel on Jan 4, 2007 14:56:05 GMT -5
I think our friend Thingy has it right on all his points. What was it--a little over 15 months ago--and even two years ago before the ill-timed extension--that most of us on here were looking for Karcher to go?? I ask you this--what is so different (other than a big south title, with some of Mel's players) from what Dunton has done compared to Karcher?? I have seen the light, gentlemen, and a win over perhaps the sorriest team in the league Saturday won't change that. Wow....so tell me which one or Mels players was that big of an impact on the championship team.....note, this should be really good.... Sarchet was a major contributer. To a lesser extent, Sneed and Turner were good role players. Much better post players coming off the bench than what we have right now.
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Post by kel on Jan 4, 2007 15:05:23 GMT -5
OK - you all have finally struck a nerve with me. What’s new Who are you guys? Sophomore in College? Senior? 1st Year Intern at Jiffy Lube? Your mom stills call you every night to make sure you didn't drink anything after 6. It's like this board is full of Basketball professionals/Analyst for ESPN. What team are you watching? What school do you think this is? Have you ever played a minute in your life? The teams not good this year? This hands down might be the best talent we have ever had on the floor at one time. Argue with me - go ahead. But, 1994 we were so good, we won the BS and almost beat NC. That team was a great TEAM, but no where as talented as the guys we have now. Schedule? Come on - are you the same guys that ragged on the Baseball team too, until they lost in the championship game because they ran out of gas? You know what kills me - it's like LU just lost to Lynchburg College, Sweet Briar, Lady of the Lake College - WE LOST TO SETON HALL, BYU, ORAL ROBERTS, SOME TEAM THAT WON THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP AND HAS ALL THERE PLAYERS BACK, LIPSCOMB, BUFFALO.... Give me a break! And you know what - we played well in most of those games. Yeah, we lost them all, but so what - it's not about the record at this point - watch the team (Oh that's right, you probably haven’t been to a game this year – you’re boycotting because you want Coach K to come over to coach at Liberty). This team will be ready for BS play and that is ALL that matters. It’s about being ready to play Asheville, High Point, Radford and so on. You all wrote in the beginning of the year on how bad the schedule was, then you complained that we can’t win a game – you can’t make your mind up anyway. OK Coach Dunton? You knew I would get to this. Again, has anyone coached before? And I’m not talking about coaching your little sister in the 5 and under YMCA league. My guess is NO. Do you know how to hard it is to build an engine from scratch, install a full bathroom in a house, build a rocket to send all these fair-weather fans to the Mars? I sure don’t, but I would never tell a Mechanic, Plumber, or Rocket Scientist how to do their job or constantly be criticizing him or her because they didn’t see success every day at work. Dunton has brought in the best talent to Liberty and that is not easy. Brewington, Bannister, Blair, Martin, Jenkins, Baker, Smith, McLean, Lightbourne, etc… Dunton is very involved in the Community. And you know what – that means a lot. Very little coaches do as much as he does for the community, like the Reading Club. Does things like Faith in the Furnace for the students. I know that’s all good, but he’s not winning – Blah Blah Blah. The team works hard, we have great talent, and why don’t you wait until after the complete season to turn in a report card and fail him on this season. As a fan – I don’t see what else he can do, or anyone else can do. Last I looked Greg Oden, Josh McRoberts, Tyler Hansbrough, Mayo weren’t putting us on top of their list. Be patient and stop being such fair-weather fans. And new policy on FlameFans – you can’t post on firing a coach or how bad a team is at LU, until you have been to an actual game. Listening to the audio for the Florida game about Liberty plays in front of 500 fans – that’s embarrassing (To Kevin’s and LU’s defense – that was unfair – it’s was Thanksgiving week and the students were on break and to make it worse – I believe it was raining). I don’t care if we go 0-24, I would still be out supporting our athletes – everyone else should also. Thanks for the reality check. Criticism as strong as some people are giving should indeed be put on hold.
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Post by SCAR on Jan 4, 2007 15:43:08 GMT -5
I agree with almost everything Proto said except coaches getting fired. I only know of 1 coach that left that was "fired" if you will and he was not a full time assistant. I don't want to get into a big discussion on who left or who is here now because this staff is really good in my opinion and I would take the old staff as well. Each group has its own merrits but some coaching styles don't always mesh. That is true with any endeavor you undertake with co-workers in business and life in general. The truth is that if you look at any of the coaches in the Big South or other conferences over the same time, it is rare to have the same exact staff over a 5 year period. Byron Samuels has had 3 total overhauls. Eddie Beidenbach has had his same staff for 5 years. Marshall has lost a couple of assistants and the only other coach that was in the league 5 years ago is Bart Lundy at HPU and I think he has lost a couple. I know Sean Woods is not there anymore (Former Kentucky player from the famous 1992 Duke Tournament game) because my boy Don Burgess took his place. Again, just trying to set the record straight as I am not sure what these discussions even prove. I am with GRM about waiting to reserve judgement on how well this team has done until the end of the season.
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Post by prototype on Jan 4, 2007 16:10:26 GMT -5
SCAR - Yes, I'm sorry. I know they weren't all fired. But I know that they weren't encouraged to stay either. It was time for a change and for Coaches Martin and Davis to do their own thing. They're both great coaches in their own right and good Head Coaches help his/her assistants find Head Coaching positions.
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Post by PAmedic on Jan 4, 2007 16:17:02 GMT -5
I am with GRM about waiting to reserve judgement on how well this team has done until the end of the season. me makes three on that one. looking forward to BSOUTH play and have decided to put the panic button back in the closet :-)
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Post by Guest on Jan 4, 2007 16:29:44 GMT -5
The seat should be boiling, not hot. Those extra things coach does other than basketball are ploys to focus the attention on other things, besides losing basketball games. Why wait until the end, this makes the reading that much better to hear it all season. Then the people who said so all year can rub it in others faces who wanted to believe Dunton is the best coach in the country.
SCAR, I thought you would say that, but you are kind of required to keep the comments to yourself.
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Post by haizeraide on Jan 4, 2007 21:42:46 GMT -5
PROTO - Wow, you must have had the EXTRA frosted flakes this morning!!! You should know by now that athletics makes experts out of us all. I will grant that there are very few with any college playing experience, let alone college coaching experience on this board (I only know of 2 or 3 who fit that bill, but will check with my FBI sources for any more) but that does not make those who do not have such experiences "lesser" or "evil" IF you were to take that tact then those who don't have that experience yet are in the Dunton camp must also be discarded. That would mean that you would only have comments or a board with 2 or 3 people. How fun is THAT? I am not sure it is fair to compare Karcher and Dunton. They are two entirely different personalities and the way they handle people is also entirely different. I will take exception with you saying this is the best coaching staff ever at LU. (I Liked the Meyer, Dunton, Naz, Scar one myself) Even RD has said his first one was the best IN THE COUNTRY. (I would call THAT hyperbole, but not sure I can spell it) As far as talent, we do have a heck of a lot of that, but that begs the question why AREN'T we winning against teams like Buffalo, Lipscomb and ORU. (Unless the City of Faith is putting off some wierd pentacostal vibes!) With talent like this WE should be the ones who are in a position to clean up on this "level" of competition. I never complained about the schedule, although STILL love the NAIA ranking comment. Schedules can and should be broken down into categories similar to: 1 - Games you will win (Cincy, Houghton, etc) 2 - Games you will lose (Oklahoma, Florida) 3 - Games that can go 50/50 (ORU, SHU, ECU, St. , etc) and conference games. This schedule reflects that IMO. What become barometers then are the 50/50 and conference games. BTW, I also know how to rebuild an engine (74 Maverick, 79 Diplomat) install a new bathroom (Tiling SUX) but the only rocket I ever built was one of those you could buy at the hobby shops and launched up then sent out a parachute a'la October Sky.
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grm
Full Member
Posts: 158
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Post by grm on Jan 4, 2007 22:22:31 GMT -5
I'm not changing or apologizing for saying "wait til the end" but I do enjoy hearing someone passionately speak up on Coach's behalf. Sometimes it is necessary and even good to fight fire with fire. Anyway, voice your criticisms, but stop the "Fire Dunton" junk is still my plea. It will be a good year, and (this is not to be taken as a cop-out) there are strong players coming in next year as well.
I've tried bathrooms, have messed with engines a bit but couldn't build one to save Josh's soul, played college basketball but in a college very, very small, and the days were so long ago I think we were still using peach baskets.
This is stupid to say, but I've used the dictionary to avoid embarassing myself if possible, and I think I just found a mistake in my Webster's unabridged (1978). It spelled "passionately" "p-a-s-s-o-i-n-a-t-e-l-y."
Oh yes, Zach is a GREAT coach, but if he weren't, I wouldn't have the guts to tell him. One punch from that sucker & I would be (how is it you guys are saying it? bye-bye Dunton's Boy).
Hope PA doesn't get on me for hijacking/rambling.
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