God in sports

[thesportscritic]

I am moving the thread from the Karcher Comments after the game over to off topic

[thesportscritic]

eddantes quote

Sportscritic: If I were you, I would never say that an entity, such as a person or a team, can accomplish something that God did not allow. It's foolish theology to say otherwise, because to do so would be to say that the entity is above God.

If victory is dependent upon how hard a team practiced, then I ask -- What's the point of praying before a big play, or even a big game? According to you, the outcome is already determined based upon the work that someone has already put in.

You are dabbling in deism. I thought Elmer Towns would have taught you better.

PAmedic quote

Ah, the old predestination vs. free-will debate.

We'll be here a while, ya better start a new thread

lufbfan3 quote

Eddantes-although I get what you are saying--I don't agree. Obviously God is in the master control, but if a team has no impact on whether they win or lose-why practice? Why not just show up on Saturday and pray for a win?

God gives the talent and the opportunity and he knows what the outcome will be before the game--obviously he allows losses and wins-but saying every week "It's a God thing that we lost" is just an easy out. That's like saying "It's not our fault that we lost-it's God's." I don't think anyone is contesting the awesomeness of God.

And yep, I'm going with God's trying to tell EVERYONE that karcher's gotta go

eddantes quote

I agree with your last statement. As for the second-to-last, let me preface this by saying that I was not a theology major.

You are absolutely right in what you said, but of course, there are two sides to the coin. Its like asking, if you had a big test would it be better to pray all night or to study?

I'd opt to study -- and then pray right before the test. I don't want to get into a theological discussion, because as I stated, I am NOT a theology major. I just think it is a cop out to say that God willed LU to lose.

(And God's probably saying "Hey, it wasn't me who decided to run to the right side on the second-to-last play. I, the Creator of the Universe, know that running up the middle would provide for a better angle on the field goal attempt.)

Now, if the kick was headed towards the uprights but hit a bird along the way, and subsequently missed... then I would blame God. Otherwise, it's a lousy coach heading up a lousy team that takes a lousy swipe at the Almighty.

I am just moving some of these quotes from the other thread in the football topic.

[thesportscritic]

Eddantes if you don't work hard in practice then what is the point of praying before a game when the team is not properly prepared for battle. God doesn't reward laziness whatsoever. If a student is taking a test but hasn't properly prepared then he/she can pray all they want but they will 99% of the time will do very bad on that test. And what makes you think that I agree with Elmer Towns on some topics and what makes you think he is my teacher? Because he is not my teacher. I don't agree with Elmer Towns on some subjects. I don't base anything off of theology Eddantes.

[Sly Fox]

Thanks for starting the thread. I was just about to do so when I noticed yours. This is actually fairly interesting argument as it relates to sports. Since I know we have a few pastors & seminary guys on here it could be enlightening.

[thesportscritic]

obviously he allows losses and wins

I still don't agree with this statement. Yes God knows the outcome of the game but he also knows if a team is prepared for battle or not. He knows whether a team puts forth the effort. The LSU vs Tennessee womens basketball game for example. These two teams played against each other in the Final Four back in 2004. Temeka Johnson turned the ball over in the waning seconds of the ball game and Shyra Ely made the easy layup to win the game for Tennesee. She said after the game that it was her fault for making that mistake. That makes me happy to hear her take responsibility for her mistake and she didn't blame God for her mistake. See we at Liberty blame God for losses but what could any of the teams at Liberty have done to prevent the loss. Worldly College Teams or the Elite programs take responsibility for their mistakes and they are better the next game.

[Sly Fox]

While I agree with your premise, thesportscritic, I think you are generalizing a bit too much:

... we at Liberty blame God for losses ...

I think most Liberty folks understand the principle of personal responsibility. I think most also feel "blaming" God for anything is never an acceptible practice.

[lufbfan3]

I think you are misunderstanding my comment. God allows losses and wins like he allows bad things to happen to good people. He isn't making someone lose-he's allowing them to screw up and lose a game. Everyone can't win, and I don't think God is sitting in heaven saying Hmm...maybe Liberty should lose all their games for the rest of the season? By the "obviously God allows..." comment I merely meant that God is in control regardless of a W or an L but that he doesn't MAKE an outcome happen. A team's preparation, coaching, and ability are what determine its win/loss record. I was saying that I am not trying to take away from God's ability to do things-but I don't think that it's right to blame God for losing.

Like I said in the other post, I think we are getting hung up on the way things are worded. I agree with your point, we are just disagreeing on the way I worded ONE part of my statements. If you look at the context-you see that I am in agreement with what you're saying.

excerpt:
[God gives the talent and the opportunity and he knows what the outcome will be before the game--obviously he allows losses and wins-but saying every week "It's a God thing that we lost" is just an easy out. That's like saying "It's not our fault that we lost-it's God's." I don't think anyone is contesting the awesomeness of God.]

And I was actually defending your original point!
[Sportscritic: If I were you, I would never say that an entity, such as a person or a team, can accomplish something that God did not allow. It's foolish theology to say otherwise, because to do so would be to say that the entity is above God.]

[thesportscritic]

My fault about misunderstanding your point and defending my other point. Yes God is in control and he is sovereign and He doesn't control the ballgame. So we do agree on that point. I was reading something out of your other posts and kinda jumped on it lufbfan3.

[eddantes]

By the way, thanks for starting this thread.

I think that if God wanted us to lose every game, no amount of preparation on our part would be able to overcome that. Conversely, if God wanted us to win every game, we would.

I actually agree with Sportscritic in the sense that inadequate preparation on Liberty's part (through practices and coaching blunders) is the reason that we lose consistently, and with such pizzazz. That is why I thought it was a cop-out to say that God wants Liberty to lose, or that God is forcing LU to lose. That's foolishness, and downright irresponsible.

As free individuals, God lets us do our own things, even if it is bad. It could be something as horrible as flying a plane into the World Trade Center, or giving Ken Karcher a contract extension. But within that, God still remains in control. When a team takes the field, God is not no longer there.

The World Trade Center collapse -- some say, where was God? Well, thousands of people did miraculously get out. The towers fell straight down, which caused less damage than if it toppled over (which was the terrorists' intent in 1993; some predicted a death toll of 250,000 if that happened).

Liberty lost. We didn't prepare. Coaching was lousy. Players threw interceptions. Where was God? Well, look at minor miracles. Maybe someone was tackled in such a way that his leg would have broke, but his spike didn't stick in the ground. That person may not have even known how close he was.

God will let you reap the consequences of your own actions, good and evil, and even at that, He'll still use that situation to allow His will to be done. I don't know if I can be more succinct than that.

I believe that you should train your best, study your hardest, and then let God take over the rest.

[thesportscritic]

Wow!!! I actually agree with you eddantes with everything you just said. It was a miracle that we actually scored in football this past weekend but the better team won that day and it was VMI.

[eddantes]

*sigh of relief*. Thanks for the props.

[Sly Fox]

That's the biting sarcasm we were missing for months. ;D

[eddantes]

sumner said:

That's the biting sarcasm we were missing for months. ;D

Was that directed at me? I was being serious with the sigh of relief comment.

The thing is, I get touchy with the God in sports subject because I got hit with e-mails a few years ago when I wrote a story about Carey Green. Towards the end of the interview, he said something to the effect of how the women's basketball team wasn't his team, it was God's team -- and that took some of the pressure off. I followed that up by saying "if it's in God's will, you'll win all the tournament games that you're supposed to according to His grand plan."

And from that, I got people saying the same sort of things that sportscritic was mentioning... So I took the opportunity here to clarify my theology about God in sports.

No sarcasm... really...

[Sly Fox]

I stand corrected. But I've enjoyed this discussion nonetheless.