Can LU sports ever be anything?

[LUconn]

Does anybody here think that LU can create a nationally recognized program in anything but debate and track? Really I'm just talking about Football and Basketball. Does our beliefs and restrictions prevent us from landing the recruits that we need? That was always my thought, but then again look at how BYU gets the cream of the crop in terms of moormans. Why can't LU get the top Southern Baptists of the country playing for them? Dwight Howard had mentioned Liberty at one time as a potential college but obviously had no intentions of attending college anyway. He went 1st in the lottery out of High School. I think Basketball could happen. Our women's team dominates the conference but can't beat anybody in the top 25 it seems. I think the men are on the right track and need to get out of the 16 spot of the tourney. The solution to me: Get out of the big south. Just thinking out loud here.

[grimmy50]

BYU did not become a sensation overnight. The school has been established for over 100 years. Also, Mormonism is very centralized. There is no "true home" for southern baptists, and baptists are split into many different sects. There are also a ton of Southern Baptist affiliated schools. That being said, Liberty cannot expect success overnight. Remember, you have to crawl before you walk. The Big South, though not great, is respectable. It is MUCH better than being an independent D II school. Let Liberty thrive on being the best in the Big South and then think about moving on.

Liberty will continue to be a tough sell due to the rules, but you are looking for that special athlete who has the beliefs and can abide by the rules. I didnt used to think that facilities mattered until being "shown the light" by several members of this board. If you build it, they will come. Facilities help attract athletes that are looking to go to the next level. You speak of "the best" coming to Liberty. "The best" will come if Liberty can help them get to the next level. That remains to be seen in basketball, but that has certainly happened in Football and Baseball. Sell the past, build the facilites, use your small alumni base to the max and you can become successful over time.

[LUconn]

I'm not saying it would happen overnight. To move on from a conference I don't think you need to dominate before you move on. I think you just need to show you can compete. And we've definately shown that. An example that's a little bit of a stretch is the Uconn football program. (even though im talking hoops for LU) They were a AA team that wasn't particularly good from year to year. Sure, they'd make a playoff run here and there but for the most part it was just average. They make the commitment to D1 and in their first 2 years they've been very good. 1 win short of a bowl game in their 2nd year of D1. I'll try to think of a bball example though. I think if we moved to the SoCon for hoops (football would be a plus) recruits would give us a harder look because they'd be up against Charlotte, UNCW etc. Teams that are respected Midmajors as opposed to Radford, CSU, CCU, etc. I don't think any of this would ever happen though. I have to tell you I'd miss playing Radford anyway.

[Sly Fox]

LUconn -- We have discussed much of your points at length in the football & hoops forums. But I'll try to touch on them here as well.

First off, perhaps I am blindly optimistic but I sincerely believe we can be a major player in just about any sport if we run things properly. But there is a wide gap between the possibility to the execution.

Frankly, I believe our beliefs are the BEST way for us to succeed. Without the big bucks of endowments or state funding, we would have practically no ability to make a national statement without our unique stance in the world of collegiate athletics.

I believe strongly that we could not only be the next BYU, but take it to an even higher level (i.e. I stand firmly behind my belief that their mythical national championship in '83 is the biggest joke in the history of the college football outside of the bowl system itself). While BYU is basically the only real option for Mormons, I firmly believe that Liberty is the only real option for Evangelicals. While there are other Baptist & Methodist schools with some name recognition like Baylor, SMU & Wake Forest, none of those schools is committed to Evangelical beliefs as the core of their mission. Baylor has tried to make a return to its Biblical roots. But the basketball murder mess shows they are a long way from accomplishing those goals. If a young, sold-out Evangelical athlete wants to play major college sports, he doesn't really have any strong options. In most instances, he will simply go to a state school. But my premise is that if there were a viable option were he could play bigtime athletics in a Christian environment, we would become a major player. But unfortunately, we have been left treading water in the weakest of Mid-Majors.

I also believe we could become a player in basketball in practically no time. Hoops is the sport where a program make a move to the big time the quickest. It only takes 2-3 ultra blue chips to find your way to the Sweet 16 or beyond. And with players turning pro at such an alarming rate, there is a constant state of flux on the hardwood. If a Dwight Howard and another Top-10 recruit would have come to LIberty for just one season, the impact could reverberate for decades once America realizes there is a Christian alternative.

As for the Southern Conference, I feel it is such a small step forward that it really is not woirth messing with. We need to force the other conferences' hands to come pleading us to join their leagues by winning where we are now. As I mentioned int he other forums, as long as we are attached to Jerry Falwell we will NOT be admitted to the other conferences that make the most sense (like the Catholic-dominated A-10 & Colonial Conferences). Liberty wouldn't exist at all without Dr. J. But he also has been a bit of an albatross from a conference standpoint in recent years. All things considered, the A-10 can keep St. Bonnies and we'll do just fine without them. I hate to use Notre Dame as an example, but the reason they remained an independent is because as they pleaded to join the Big Ten for decades, they were rebuffed for their nasty reputation for cheating. The end result is they built their amazing program on their own and now look at everyone else chasing them. Granted, we don't have the assets or heritage of ND to build on, but the principle still applies.

Sorry for the rambling. But believe it or not, this was my abbreviated version.

[grimmy50]

I am usually very optimistic sly fox, but I have to disagree with you on your optimism about our athletic program attaining notariety. Blue chip athletes are blue chip athletes. They are looking for the one or two year "tour" with a college team, playing as many ESPN games as they can until their inner circle of parents, high school coaches, and "behind the scenes agents" tell them they are a lottery pick. You will not get that type of athlete in a below average mid-major.

Now you have a valid point on the "type" of athlete attracted to LU. Why would a Christian teenager who is a legitimate NBA prospect who is one to two years away want to go somewhere where they would "build a legacy" for the University. It sounds as if the University would be benefiting more from the athlete than the University benefiting the athlete. Plus, one or two years isnt enough time for the athlete to generate the buzz for Liberty to get the notariety, not to mention the lower level of competition they would face on a nightly basis. Overall, it could hurt the athletes chances for a lucrative NBA career.

Yes, there is a chance you could get one blue chipper who is a sold out Christian who would pass on the fame and career possibility of the NBA, but that would be an extreme anomoly. It reminds me of one of my fellow students in my Christian high school who went to Bob Jones University to be a chef. They have a culinary program, but in order to land a job in a 4 star restaurant kitchen, wouldnt you go to a respected culinary school? Now who is to say that down the road if the right talent came to their culinary school and landed a big time chef job that the culinary program might not become recognized, but that is more wishful thinking than strategic planning. All that being said, I am hungry, but I digress.......

Who's to say that Liberty couldnt develop a respected basketball program, but I think "hoping to land a blue chipper" is wishful at best. You need to focus on what you mentioned previously - and that is the management of the program. You need to build the facilities, blitz the alumni, and create a local buzz. Once you fill the bandwagon and get a few dollars in the coffers - go sell what you believe (Evangelical beliefs). Now, I agree that blue chippers are important, but I think you need to lock up all the Christian Schools. Dont let any athlete from a Christian School that is worth anything get away to a state school. If LU could just tap into the Christian School System they flood with teachers, then I believe they could stay competitive and among the "upper crust" of the Big South. Stay competitive with the Christian School kids, start winning, gain notariety, and then maybe a blue chipper Christian kid will take notice and want to come. Wishful - maybe, but at least it is a measurable plan.

Building a legacy will take decades. I think the fellow alumni can agree that Liberty does an extremely poor job of reaching out to us or offering anything for us. If it translates to regular alumni like us, what are they doing in the athletic arena with those alumi? You have to keep your alumni close to the vest. They are the ones out in the field active in churches, Christian organization, and schools that have influence on these kids who could benefit the athletic programs at LU. Alumni can be the best resource in championing the beliefs of LU and sell the positive experience of being part of the University.

OK, so maybe I dont disagree with you as much as I though sly fox, but I think we definately see two different paths to get there.

[Innocent Bystander]

Lots of great points. I think the comparison to Notre Dame is an apt one in this regard...ND built their athletic identity by being THE Catholic university. For Liberty to move up, they need to be seen as THE Evangelical university. As with ND, both the athletic department and the university as a whole would benefit. But, as Grimmy pointed out, there is no shortcut on this road.

As for whether Liberty can gain noteriety as a member of the Big South, I think we need to look at the West Coast Conference. Another mid-major conference, they have had one member dominate the conference in basketball in recent years, and then follow up that success with some success in the tourney. Gonzaga is now a very well known school nationally due to their success in basketball, and they have done it without recruiting blue chippers. It can be done.

[bubba]

yeah, that little white kid with the fro kindof reminds me of a whit HF with a good attitude. you know, the one from like 4 years ago sweet 16 (?) zags

[Sly Fox]

I think you misunderstood I disagreeertion, grimmy. I didn't say I EXPECTED for us to land a couple blue chippers and become a mid-major power overnight. I was just expressing how it could happen. And while I agree with your theories on HS seniors droolling over the NBA, I think you need to keep in mind the overseas possibilities. The influx of Euros, Argentines and Chinese have forever altered the NBA landscape. The number of opporunties for US players is decreasing at a rapid rate these days. So there is bound to be a resurgence in the US-born players using the NCAA game to raise their stock. And let us not rule out the potential of LU signing some of the overseas studs.

As for LUconn's U-Conn analogy, I don't think it is particularly applicable to Liberty. The Huskies football program was built quickly on two strengths: Hoops success in a BCS conference and a state government in CT that has poured a TON of money into the school to try and bring bigtime football to the staste similar to how some governments build stadiums to attract pro teams. LU certainly doesn't have the Commonwealth of Virginia dipping deep into its coffers to underwrite our program. And the Big South isn't exactly the cashcow that the Big East was at the time of U-Conn's development.

And you mentioned in another thread about Emeka Okafor not being a Top-100 prospect coming out of high school in another thread. That's isn't exactly accurate. He wasn't highly regarded coming into his senior season. He didn't sign in the fall signing period unlike most of the nation's top prospects. So when he had a monster senior season at Bellaire HS here in Houston, he became one of the hottest properties in the country. Many of the nationa's elite programs would have loced to sign him but they had already signed their limit in the fall. So ultimately it came down to U-Conn and Texas Tech. Bobby Knight made bringing Emeka to Lubbock his top priority after getting hired. But Emeka wisely avoided the General. Emeka's older brother was a highly touted prospect as well who was a major bust at the University of Houston. That certainly affected Emeka's statutre in recruiting circles. But something you may not have realized is that Emeka never was really a scorer in hgih school ball. He was strictly a beast on the boards and defensive wizard. And how could he be? His point guard was John Lucas III (Big XII Player of Year) and Little Luke always was a shoot first and pass second point. A little known fact about Emeka that you might find interesting is that two of his teammates on his freshman team at Bellaire were Lucas and Lawrence Roberts (SEC Player of the Year). Roberts later transferred to another school in the district (probably because of Lucas' aforementioned tendencies). Just a few nuggets from my days covering Emeka down here on the high school level.

[GUEST]

Emeka and Patrick Okafor are not brother's I know both of them. Patrick and I actually went on a couple of recruting trips together: Blinn Junior College, Trinity Valley Community College and Baytown Lee where he eventually signed instead of LU. Did you know Patrick committed to LU to play for Dunton, but he didn't feel comfortable playing for Hankinson.



A former player

[Sly Fox]

I was the one who made the error regarding the Okafors.

And I think it is obvious why anyone might have had some issues playing for Mel. He was a different bird.

[LUconn]

Here's an interesting take in basketball. Oral Roberts seems like they share identical values. Their recruiting base the mid-west most likely being in Tulsa. 12 of 14 on their roster are from teh mid-west with a couple of local boys. They do have a semi-successful history, which may be what sets them apart because their conference stinks like ours (well not as bad, but bad enough). This year so far:

Sat, Nov 20 W 101-60 -- --
Wed, Nov 24 at Northern Arizona W 70-69 -- --
Sat, Nov 27 at Saint Louis W 55-54 -- --
Wed, Dec 1 Loyola (IL) W 48-44 -- --
Sun, Dec 5 at Tulsa W 70-47 -- --
Sat, Dec 11 at Utah Valley St. W 92-89 -- --
Tue, Dec 14 Northern Colorado W 78-57 -- --
Mon, Dec 20 at Georgetown W 81-63

Now I know this isn't exactly against the greatest competion but they're getting it done convincingly. They get seeds in the tourney that aren't 16. They've won in the tourney. Maybe our staff should be looking to see what it is that they're doing.

[Fly Like an Eagle]

I just don't think that LU can ever be anything athletiically, and this is my reasoning why:

James Madison just won the I-AA championship, meaning that the top I-AA caliber high school football playesr are going to want to play there (and not in Lynchburg, just a few hours down the road). But there's still a big gap between being champs and being nationally recognized, because frankly, not enough people care about I-AA football. Quick - who was the runner up? See...

(Montana, by the way). It'll take a significant jump to be respectable in the I-A level, where people would care. And even then, you're competing with the likes of VT and UVA for respectablity in the state. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it's gonna take a loooong time, especially when it's taken years to compete in the lowly Big South - three years and we still can't claim the top spot.

As for basketball, you can do things like win the big south repeadedly, but you won't get respect - see the women's team. They've lost like what, one game in three years and still get a 14 seed every time?

The men's team needs to have a Gonzaga-like run in order to make it - and it has to happen for several years. And in college basketball, you need top talent - but those players no longer go to college long enough to establish a program.

Case in point: James Lang. my senior year, LU basketball was recruiting him hard. It was down to three places -- Liberty, Lousiville and the NBA. He verbally commited to Louisville and then backed out, so Lousiville didn't want him anymore - LU and the NBA... Eventually, because his family was poor, he jumped to the NBA for the money... although he went in the second round to the New Orleans Hornets (where the contracts aren't guaranteed), got injured during preseason and was later cut. And the thing is, athletes will take that road everytime.

[LUconn]

It's taken years? Big South football has been in existance for what, 2 years? What the heck did CCU do? They won the conference in their 2nd year and got in the top 25. We don't fail at recruiting because JMU is up the road, we fail because good football players may want to go get a sub at Sheetz at 1:30am, or they might want to keep their bed unmade, etc.

You're right in respect to Bball. Winning the conference year after year doesnt get you the type of recognition which would turn into recruiting. It gets you as the 16 seed in Lunardi's preseason bracketology and that's it. It takes something noteworthy in the view of the country, such as a win against a top 10 team during the regular season, or a player that's 2nd team AA, or a couple of wins in the tourney (in the same year). And as I've always said, It's not gonna happen in the Big South. In fact, that's going to be in my signature from now on.

P.S. sign up and stay a while with us. This board seems to be growing some.

[Sly Fox]

Fly -- First off, welcome to the board. Stick around and register and post frequently. The more voices the better.

But I would humbly have to disagree with some your assertions. I see JMU's success as reason to expect more fromt he Flames. If that dumpy little backwoods school can win a national championship with their scant recruiting draw, then there is absolutely no reason we shouldn't be successful as well. We shouldn't be recruiting head-to-head with the Dukes very often anyway. We should be looking beyond the boundaries of the Commonwealth for talent while JMU is rather limited due to no real recognition beyond a fairly small geographical area. When we first turned I-AA we were immediately competitive with the Dukes. But over the past decade or so, they have improved while we have fliundered in mediocrity (or worse) in football.

While it would take a significant jump to be competitive in I-A, it is far from impossible. Schools like North Texas have gone from mediocre to poor I-AA teams to moderately successful non-BCS programs. BUt frankly, the rules have changed and we are not going I-A anytime soon. In fact, many I-As are about to get bumped back down to I-AA by the NCAA's new guidelines (and many longtime I-As are going to get dumped as well due to attendance requirements). So the I-AA landscape is about to get tougher. But it does offer us an opportunity to refocus our attention to more of a national scope away from the dreaded Virginias-Carolinas Syndrome that has hampered our growth and success for years.

We agree wholeheartedly that winning in the Big South proves nothing .... but its something we have yet to do on a consistent basis already. But I firmly believe we will rise or stoop to the level of our competition. And as poor as the Big South has proven to be, I disagreeumption has unfortunately proven to be true thus far.

Your analogy with James Lang is becoming a FAR too common problem. Every NBA Draft is loaded with kids who shouldn't be in it. But as long as the league continues to throw obscene money at unproven kids, disadvantaged ballers are going to give it a shot. Its their lottery ticket and they don't want to take a chance getting hurt to ruin what little hope they might possess. Its a completely disjointed mindset, but will that will persist until David Stern finally pushes through a minimum age requirement (that will likely be thrown out in the courts despite the common good for everyone involved).

I like LUconn's comparison to Oral Roberts. I have some familiarity with ORU since they compete with our Texan schools on a regular basis. ORU has managed to overcome an image associated with a controversial televangelist (sound familiar?). But they face an even more daunting task than we do. Though they began 8 years prior to Liberty, they have just over 3600 undergrad students enrolled. And in addition to their small numbers they are competing in a state less than half the size of Virginia against some of the powerhouses of mens basketball. If it weren't enough being about an hour away from Final Four regulars Oklahoma and Okie State, they are just across town from one of the most successful mid-major programs in the nation, Tulsa. Despite these obstacles, the Golden Eagles have managed to put quality teams on the floor through a combination of overlooked Oklahoma/Texas talent and a bevy of Jucos (they also always seem to have an international or two on their roster). Just imagine what we could do with our resources (which are MUCH greater than those of ORU) with a similar plan. The Mid-Continent is not a huge upgrade from the Big South (but a significant one nonetheless) and yet they are able to schedule quality non-conference opponents and compete with them. This gives me hope that we can eventually turn this corner as well.

Bottom line, there is reason to believe there is a light at the end of the tunnel if we can avoid getting derailed or losing steal altogether.

[PAmedic]

HELLO: its not the recruting, money or facilities. ITS THE COACHING! or lack of it...

[belcherboy]

Ah, I remember having these conversations with guys in the dorms. "Can Liberty ever be in the final four?"

Can LU ever be in the national picture? We have shown flashes of brilliance over the past 10 years (i.e. 1994 men vs. UNC first round, Girls several times over the past 5-7 years), but have really failed in turning the corner. I agree with the last guy in saying that much of it falls on coaching/the guys running the program. The girls basketball teams have been solid the past 7 years on the court and in turn so has the recruiting. They haven't turned the corner, but are really just one tournament win away from being recognized as a top 30 program. In my opinion, high school players (both guys and girls) are enticed by seeing a team like Liberty in the tourney EVERY year. Especially when they are playing a top 5 team (usually more televised than the other games).

The men have to dominate the Big South first. If they can dominate the Big South for 3-4 years, it has a ripple effect in terms of recruiting which then ripples into higher rankings which ripples into better games against higher ranked teams, which ripples into better possibilities of winning a game or two in the NCAA tourney (due to getting better seeds). The girls have set up such a domination that they will be set for several years to come and are more recognizable by the NCAA tourney committee. The girls have been on the verge of a 12 seed, in my opinion, and need a dominate season with an upset or 2 to secure it. When we get that 12th seed, we need to win!!

The problem is that boys and girls sports are quite different in terms of intensity and competition in recruiting. Especially in football (due to the high number of athletes needed to have a successful program) and to a lesser extent basketball, I am leary that we will ever have a team that is in the nations eye. I have several friends who have played D-I basketball. One in particular played for a successful program that was ranked in the top 25 and won an NCAA tourney game while he was there. He told me of money that he would "find" in his sports jackets after games. He was friends with several football players and it was the same thing. He played on all star college teams in the summer and would tell me of the ludicrous stories they would share about all this. Unfortunately it is a part of the system. Whether anyone wants to admit to it or not, players are affected by it. It's hard to get the top notch players to a program that is restrictive to the athlete in terms of lifestyle (school rules) and the lack of exposure they get playing in Lynchburg, Virginia.

Liberty is a hard sale to big time athletes and there just aren't enough big time christian athletes willing to take a gamble on their professional career by playing in a place that won't be able to properly promote them or even make them as good as they could be (i.e. competition).

My opinion is that it is possible, but I'm a Detroit Lions fan and one day think they could win a Super Bowl, so that tells you about how optimistic a fan I am of my teams!!

[Sly Fox]

That's funny, I thought guys simply talked theology in LU dorms. ;D

Frankly, I don't think playing ball for Liberty is that much of a gamble for a professional career. Take a look at NFL & NBA rosters. The typical player on Sundays likely could have spent his college years at Arkansas-Pine Bluff or Sacramento State. If you have talent, you'll be found no matter where you are. The major powers certainly give a larger platform to athletes.

As for your aspirations for the Lions, as long as you guys keep drafting Longhorns then things will definitely continue to improve. Wait til you have Roy for an entire season. There's a reason he was called 'Legend' in his few weeks on campus at the University of Texas. He has the ability to make everyone forget why there was all the fuss about Randy Moss back in the day. As a longtime Bengals fan, I feel you Lions pain (honestly, I now claim primary allegiance to the Texans ... I don't hate their owner yet like I despise the Brown brothers in Cincy). I grew up in Southern Ohio where the Lions won several NFL championships before moving up to Detroit and enduring decades of despair. You should be happy that at least the Pistons are giving you some joy.

[belcherboy]

I don't sweat the Lions too much, as I am conditioned to losing. My great love is the Michigan Wolverines as I am a season ticket holder (first year). Saying all that, I am not assured of a Michigan victory today. Texas looks TOUGH!!! Michigan plays lousy against mobile QB's and everything I have read and seen about Young he is VERY mobile QB.

Gametime is about an hour and a half from now. If you want to talk some football, my other messageboard ( www.motownsports.com ) will be talking Michigan vs. Texas football all day (and probably for a few days after). C'mon by and correct all the inaccuracies that will most definitely arise when discussing the Longhorns!

[Sly Fox]

(WARNING --- NO LU INFO AT ALL IN THIS POST)

I am just about ready to head over to my father-in-law's house where there will be Longhorns everywhere (I am married to one). I know most of the guys on the team who you'll see on the field today. Vince Young is just beginning to discover ways to use his limitless potential.

I think the position that will decide the game will be RB. Whether it is the freshman or the senior who performs better will decide the outcome IMHO.

The defensive player to train your eyes on is LB #11 Derrick Johnson. He will be the #1 pick in the upcoming NFL Draft. Kiper had him going #1 overall this past draft if he hadn't followed in the footsteps of Ricky & Roy Williams and a slew of other who stayed 4 years despite assurances of going Top-5 overall.

By the way, I grew up in Ohio a Buckeye with an inate hatred for the maize & blue who would have been nothing without carpetbagging talent out of the State of Ohio. So I think its obvious who I would prefer to see win today.

[Sly Fox]

Hook 'Em

We now return to this regularly scheduled thread about whether or not LU sports can ever be anything.

[PAmedic]

like Belcher alluded to: there are many ugly things a program MUST do to be successful in D 1A sports- whether anybody wants to admit or not. It is absolutely unrealistic to think LU would even go down that road and compromise the school's integrity to win. Most big programs "do what they need to do", and that involves everything from "nutritional suppliments" to cash to booze and women, etc. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. We have to accept that and be happy w/ moderate athletic success (at best) but upstanding kids.