|
Post by PittLU on Nov 7, 2005 11:33:33 GMT -5
Sorry, but these are the same Chokies of the past - just in a different conference. They always choke in the big games. Maybe it is because they play such a joke of a non-conference schedule. Miami and FSU are the big dogs, and VT doesnt belong in the same tier until they beat FSU and Miami on a regular basis. Until then, they are what they are and wont get the respect in the polls.
|
|
|
Post by givemethemic on Nov 7, 2005 11:46:59 GMT -5
Yeah Chris was there, I road up with him and Nathan Warters from the N&A, Chris was doing some stuff for CSTV and for the N&A.
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 7, 2005 13:57:17 GMT -5
Hey at least Tech has been in position to "choke" the last few years. There are quite a programs that would like to "choke" like Tech has. Beating Miami last year in the Orange Bowl winner take all for the ACC crown was hardly a "choke". Beating BCS bound WVU at Morgantown was hardly a "choke". SO I went back and looked and since 1993 (when Tech started it's roll of consecutive bowl games) Tech's record vs. teams ranked in the Top 25 is 25-14 a winning % of .641. During that time Tech has had wins over ranked teams such as:
Miami (Tech is 5-4 vs. UM when they are ranked since 1993 including Sat night loss) Texas WVU Texas A&M LSU Boston College Virginia Indiana Alabama Marshall
Is Tech USC or Texas or one of the all-time great programs? No? But hardly a pitiful bunch of "choke" artist that can't find their way home. I wish LU would start "choking" like this. Furthermore the fact they are still #8 after getting spanked by a better Miami team tells me the coaches and writers give them plenty of respect in the polls. I thought we would drop further than that.
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Nov 7, 2005 17:22:28 GMT -5
good to see ya again H'BURG.
Also, it was mentioned that Tech won 7 outta the last 10 against da' U.
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 7, 2005 16:42:25 GMT -5
Good to see you again Medic. I needed a break from our LU football season. Frustrating beyond belief. I did go see PSU and Purdue two weeks ago. PSU is for real. great job this year by JoePA and crew. I just finished a book titled "The Lion in Autumn" - great read - pick it up.
Tech just ran into a better team last Saturday. The kids didn't "choke" - they got whipped plain and simple. UM is so good up front on the OL and DL - athletically they dominated Tech. Miami has done that to a bunch of people over the last 20 years!
|
|
|
Post by bigsmooth on Nov 7, 2005 16:53:09 GMT -5
good to see you back around HF! sorry your boys lost sat night! ;D still VT has an awesome squad, and im looking forward to the battle on the 19th. you guys are clearly better, but it is a rivalry game. who knows?? it will be fun indeed. are you going???
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 7, 2005 20:55:04 GMT -5
Good to see you smooth. Saturday night was a rough one but at least now we have an idea of where we stand talent wise. Not to the pinnacle yet. Miami just has kids playing at a different level. They are good. now we'll see if we have any Bryan Randall's to lead us. Still alot to play for - need to pick it up and move on. UVA and UNC are two games they should be able to get up for. We'll have to play very well to win!
I'll be watching the game from San Diego. I have to go to a conference that week and weekend. I'll be driving back down for UNC the following weekend. Good luck this weekend against the other Tech.
|
|
|
Post by PittLU on Nov 8, 2005 8:56:19 GMT -5
H'Burg - I disagree with you. I dont believe that UM has more talen that VT. If that were the case, UM would dominate you over the years, and that just isnt the case. You stated that your record agains them is 5-4 over that past 12 years while UM is ranked. If they are so much better than you talent wise, you wouldnt have played them as straight up. Your team choked in the big game at home. It happens. I just hope that the game wasnt such an emotional let down that VT loses focus and loses a couple more before the end of season. In 2002, Pitt went into VT while VT was ranked #3 and beat them. VT went on to lose against Syracuse, WV, and Miami eventually settling for the San Francisco Bowl against Air Force. All I am saying is that could happen again because it happened in the past. VT needs to stay focused and win out for a good bowl.
As far as other teams having the opportunity to "choke" - you dont have to tell me about that. Being a life long Steelers fan, I have had to endure choke jobs during the 1994, 1998, 2002 and 2004 AFC Championship games. I wouldnt whine if someone said the Steelers choked - because they did, just like the Hokies did this year against UM. You dont have to get all bent out of shape over it - it is part of football and playing in big games.
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Nov 8, 2005 10:07:16 GMT -5
Well, in H'BURGs defense- he didn't seem bent outta shape to me. But I'll bet he is now!
In fact, there's probably a _ _ _ (insert vehicle here, Honda Civic maybe?) speeding out the PA Turnpike to Pittsburg right now, fueled by 'dem fightin' words.
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 8, 2005 10:20:48 GMT -5
I still disagree. If the recruiting experts are right (or close to being right) Miami has better talent. They outrecruit Tech every year. Their DL was SO MUCH better athletically than our OL is wasn't even funny. We don't have an OLineman that could start for Miami. we played poorly but that was more due to Miami's constant pressure on D and not matching up.
I was never bent out of shape about anything. I didn't miss any tackles Saturday night. Just too many people who don't know anything about football automatically assume a team "chokes" when in essence they were soundly beaten. hey we were overrated and lost to a better team. My rebuttle to you was to express my disagreement on your statement -"They always choke in the big games" - always implies everytime I wanted to point out to you they have won some big games as well. I think the kids played hard Saturday night (not well) and were beaten by a hot team right now.
I have to give credit to Pitt when they had Walt Harris - Tech leads the series 9-4 and Pitt was a complete joke. But give credit to Pitt - they won the last 3 against Tech. Glad to see them coming back on the Tech schedule even though palying Pitt doesn't do much for improving our already preceived "weak" out of conference schedule.
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 8, 2005 10:28:40 GMT -5
LUPITT -
I just re-read my post and let me be clear - when I said "Just too many people who don't know anything about football automatically assume a team "chokes" when in essence they were soundly beaten" - I did not mean that to be directed toward you. I made that as a general comment.
|
|
|
Post by bigsmooth on Nov 8, 2005 10:29:23 GMT -5
HF is a very passionate hokie! i can appreciate it. we had a little verbal war going over the VT/UVA rivalry. it is just passion, and he backs up his passion with facts. i really do not think he got bent out of shape though.i think all fans of our teams sometimes can get jaded by our love and passion though. in your defense LUPITT, i do think the hokies laid a goose egg. this was a golden oppty. to hush all detractors about the hokies being a true national power. it was set up for them. the home field advantage at lane stadium....one of the toughest places to play in college football, a national TV audience, and media coverage out the ying yang since early in the week. they still are one of the top 10 best programs in the country for about the past 6-8 yrs, and have a top 5 coach in frank beamer, and in all likelihood will finish 10-1 this year and once again play in a very good bowl game, but this game was a missed oppty.....and in your words LUPITT a choke. i just think most people wrote off the U and it really fueled the fire. i really think both teams are pretty equal in talent, and if they play 10 times, maybe it is 6-4 or a split in either teams favor. BTW, this really pained me to write this b/c you all know im a wahoo., but i can give credit, where credit is due.
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 8, 2005 11:17:52 GMT -5
Wow smooth - that must have hurt. Honestly - I did not get bent out of shape about anything - everyone is entitled to an opinion. I just like to try and mix in some facts when I make a blanket statement. LUPITT's first statement was very "flip". Let me break it down and then I'll quit.
"Sorry, but these are the same Chokies of the past - just in a different conference" - BigEast Champs in 95,96,99 - finished second or tied for second six times. So in nine years of VT's 12years in the conference they finished first or tied for second. ACC champs in 2004 as well.
"They always choke in the big games" - I attempted to define a big game as a game in which the opponent is ranked in the Top25. That said since 1993 VT has a winning % of .641 against ranked opponents. Season finale in 2004 at Miami winner is ACC champ tech won.
"Maybe it is because they play such a joke of a non-conference schedule" - I can't argue this point but I will say last year we played USC #1, WVU ranked #6 at the time. In the last 5 years OOC opponents have included Texas A&M, LSU, WVU, USC but I would give you this point.
"Miami and FSU are the big dogs, and VT doesnt belong in the same tier until they beat FSU and Miami on a regular basis" - Last 11 meetings VT is 7-4 vs. Miami. FSU owns Tech. but to put down Tech as choke artist and then Miami and FSU as the basis for that statement - then all of college football is a bunch choke artists. These are two of the best teams in the country every year!
"Until then, they are what they are and wont get the respect in the polls" - ranked #8 after getting spanked at home. I would say that is respect. VT is a top 10 team in my opinion but not a contender for the NC.
I just like to see blanket statments backed up wth facts. There is no variable out there that measures "choke" - maybe air balling a free throw to win the game. But was a team outcoached, outplayed, outhustled, out-talented??? Tough to measure. So with that variable being so undefined - saying something along the lines of "They always choke in big games" - is going to be tough to prove when someone asks you to - prove it.
|
|
|
Post by SCAR on Nov 8, 2005 12:44:53 GMT -5
I don't think VT choked. They lost to a good team that had a good game plan to dominate the line of scrimmage. I think choked is an over used word but in my opinion a choke is when you are heavily favored and lose or if you have a big game and you just play as bad as you ever did due to the pressure. That said, I think VT played bad due to the pressure...on Marcus Vick from the d of Miami. The kid couldn't inhale without someone on Miami exhaling. They were in his jersey all night. Miami played better but I don't think losing to Miami is a choke job.
|
|
|
Post by Sly Fox on Nov 8, 2005 21:07:45 GMT -5
It must be tough to be a Hokie fan after that one. Either your team choked or you aren't as good as you thought. Tough predicament to be in.
|
|
|
Post by givemethemic on Nov 8, 2005 23:18:00 GMT -5
Here's the thing, no body gave Miami a chance, I was in the Miami locker room after the game and talked to about half the team. Eric Winston is now my favorite player to talk to, he is one of the most entertaining players that I have ever talked to. Watching the last 3 games Miami is now even more dangerous in my mind then they have been in a long time. There D is almost unstopable, they are now blitzing like they have never before. They used to just dare you to beat them and just sit back, but now they are using stunts and sending guys all over the place. That's exactly what they did to Vick and Frank Beamer in company didn't know what to do. The thing that's scary is that Kyle Wright has got a lot of time left at the U, this time is going to be good for a long time. With that just givemethemic
|
|
|
Post by PittLU on Nov 9, 2005 4:29:11 GMT -5
givemethemic - nice take. Always good to have some inside info. I hated it when Miami was good and beat up on the Big East, but could stand it a little bit because they were usually always ranked and helped the conference get a little bit of respect. Now that they are in the ACC and cant beat up on the Big East, I will enjoy following them.
H'Burg - My frame of reference for "choking" was 2000-2003 when I started closely following the Big East. My case:
2000: 5-0 - loss to Temple @ Blacksburg 2001: 6-0 - loss to Syracuse @ Blacksburg 2002: 8-0 - loss to Pitt @ Blacksburg 2003: 6-0 - loss to WV @ Morgantown
Now granted - all of those games werent really chokes, but VT had a rep of beating up on a weak non-conference schedule, being overated and falling to teams that were ranked well below or not at all.
This year is different. VT had credentials going into this game having beaten some tough teams and being undefeated in conference (no small feat for any team at this point in the season), No doubt UM was superior, but the choke reference came in from watching VT follow the same path when they were in the Big East. In the past, a loss like this would put their season in a tailspin. I may have been pre-mature because there are two conference games left. If they are the same Hokies I knew in the past, they will lose 1 of 2 or maybe both. If VT wins their remaining conference games, I will retract my choke statement and call it a beating by a superior UM team this year.
On a side note, I make my return to Lynchburg tonight (first time since 2002). I am looking forward to seeing how much the campus has grown. Hopefully the bookstore will have some good gear to buy....
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 9, 2005 5:49:47 GMT -5
Sly:
It's never tough to be a Hokie fan! I've been going to game up there since 1971 - these are good times - you have to keep it in perspective. I'd rather be a Hokie - win, lose, or tie (even though they are non-existant anymore). Tech still has a chance for a great year.
I think Tech was overrated - we're good - but not Miami good. Your boys are looking good Sly. If they can win out (which they should given the state of the Big12 in 2005) the USC match up should be fun to watch.
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 9, 2005 7:02:05 GMT -5
LUPITT:
Well at least we are closing the gap a bit huh? We went from "Thay always choke in big games" to 4 games that cover a four year period. Actually the Temple game you reference was 1998 not 2000 . These are painful games to think about but let me take a swing nonetheless.
1998: 5-0 - loss to Temple @ Blacksburg - worst loss in school history. After this game Tech beat UAB, Rutgers, and WVU. Lost to Syracuse in the Dome 26-24 and UVA 36-32. Went on to beat Alabama 38-7 to finish 9-3. This season was the springboard to the national title run in 1999.
2001: 6-0 - loss to Syracuse @ Blacksburg - First year "post-Vick". 2001 was a rebuilding year. Very young on offense with Grant Noel at QB. Anyone who thought VT was a contender in 2001 was nuts. Inexperience on O and D. After losing to SU, Tech lost to Pitt before beating Temple and Virginia. They lost to Miami 26-24 in the finale and lost to FSU in the Gator Bowl. Finished 8-4 in a rebuilding year. 2002: 8-0 - loss to Pitt @ Blacksburg - Bryan Randall makes debut at QB in 2002. After the Pitt loss Tech lost in 3OT to SU in the Dome, lost to WVU 21-18 on an int in the end zone, beat UVA, and lost to number 1 Miami 56-45 in the finale. Beat AFA in the bowl game.
2003: 6-0 - loss to WV @ Morgantown - You win here. The 2003 team was nothing but a bunch of guys with their own agendas. I could cry injuries but that is part of football and this team didn't handle it well. But the 2003 team laid the groundwork for 2004 in how not to be a team. Many think 2003 was the most talented Tech team ever - not so. They were breaking in 6 new starters on D and the WR's were nothing to write home about. The expectations for this season were thrown out of whack when Tech beat #2 Miami 31-7.
I could point out other seasons like 1995 - started 0-2 - then won 10 straight games beating 4 ranked teams and then beating Texas in the Sugar Bowl. BigEast champs. How about 1996? BigEast champs beating 4 ranked teams before losing to Nebraska in the Orange. How about 1999 (I addressed 1998 above) and the Michael Vick run at WVU to keep a perfect season alive and lock up another BE champ? How about 2004 in the finale going to the Orange Bowl to play 7 ranked Miami in a winner take all for the ACC title?
I enjoyed our debate and you don't have to worry about retracting any statements. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and as adults we can express our disagreement without getting bent out of shape. Say what you will about Tech but this season will make 13 straight bowl games. 4 conference titles since 1995. Playing in a conference now that doesn't have three distinct factions to appease (basketball schools, football schools, and ND). People who forget the BE rejected Tech for all sports memebership (taking them as a football member only in 1992) therefore setting our non-revenue sports back 100 years - are the same people crying about Tech showing no loyalty to the BE jumping for the ACC. Amazing. Ask the BE about the admission fees for Tech to join and their revenue sharing plan for Tech! A joke. Truth is WVU, Pitt, RU - any of them would jump to the ACC if asked. The BE was the spring board for football no doubt and I am proud of the accomplishments of the BE football conference - but they treated Tech (who carried the conference flag in 95 and 96 when UM was down) like crap.
I'm not going to get bent out of shape at one loss! Furthermore and this is my final point - Tech is 6th in the BCS and 8th in the rankings. There are about 114 other D-I teams that would like to be in that position. Tech is on a journey - they may get there and they may not - but they are making strides as a football program and athletic program that for a long time fan like me - is fun to watch.
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Nov 9, 2005 8:40:45 GMT -5
Let me break it down and then I'll quit. Yeah, right. Knew THAT wasn't gonna happen!
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 9, 2005 8:58:48 GMT -5
Oh one more funny tidbit - re:losing to Temple in 1998. Temple's only other win that year was a 34-33 win over Pitt (at Pitt) in which Temple trailed 20-0 in the first half.
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Nov 9, 2005 9:02:37 GMT -5
no comment on my visual of you speeding out the TP in your Civic, H'BURG?
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 9, 2005 9:08:47 GMT -5
My first car was a 1978 Honda Accord - don't own a Civic but it might be a good idea to go incognito. Maybe I'll rent one!
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Nov 9, 2005 9:24:04 GMT -5
I KNEW IT!
I had you PEGGED for a Honda guy! That's why I'm da MEDIC- great assessment skills. (and a fat head) remember, I sniffed out AUNTIE ANN as a relative before she outted herself, too!
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 9, 2005 9:29:35 GMT -5
What did you think of TO's latest speech? Almost made me cry.
|
|
|
Post by PAmedic on Nov 9, 2005 9:33:18 GMT -5
BS.
can't print the rest on this site
get rid of him
|
|
|
Post by bigsmooth on Nov 9, 2005 17:01:11 GMT -5
HF, you are truly a book of facts! and a very good debater!
|
|
|
Post by ATrain on Nov 9, 2005 18:48:19 GMT -5
HF FOR PRESIDENT
|
|
|
Post by HarrisburgFlame on Nov 9, 2005 19:28:07 GMT -5
Thank you. Thank you. I attribute my useless knowledge to owning and reading just about every VT and LBC/LU media guide ever printed! hey you're talking to a guy who has every USFL media guide for each team, each season! seriously, I have to have an outlet for my stress and frustration. I deal with the Madison Avenue "artsy fartsy" marketing types then the "Brainiac Five's" in market research - getting hammered on a daily basis jumping through numerous pharmaceutical strategic marketing hoops! Brainic Five's are "show me the data types". But I have adopted their approach in many areas. I have learned not to take on any argument unless I feel relatively sure there are data to support my stance. If not I let it slide.
But I accept your nomination nonetheless. I doubt LUPITT will vote for me - but I love him just the same - as at the end of the day we are all FLAMES baby!
|
|
|
Post by PittLU on Nov 10, 2005 7:22:25 GMT -5
I enjoyed the lively debate. I cannot agree with you enough about the BE and how it dealt with Tech. Of course, warts and all, I am still a fan of the BE conference and am hoping it will find an identity and build upon it. B-Ball looks promising, but football is a mess.
BTW - I am taking nothing away from Tech. They are a great program to follow and I truly miss our rivalry (VT vs. PITT). I just wish PITT was in the national scope every year, but we will be soon. Good luck the rest of the way.
|
|