Fire Karcher

[Guest]

I posted this on an ESPN board, before I was directed here. I figure I should repeat it:

I think the Ken Karcher tenure has really gotten old. I mean, the guy came and said that he needed years to "rebuild" a program (I use rebuild loosely because the team went 9-2 three years before he arrived). But since then, he's done very little with the talent that he's been given.

He is, by far, the worst coach in LU history, if you judge by winning percentage. We're told he has this great system and that it just needs time to be implemented, but seriously - Gus Condon spent THREE YEARS under Karcher and remember how bad he was?

Coach Dunton needed one year to rebuild the basketball team, which finished last in the nation before he got there. How long will we put up with Karcher?

HIRE DAN REEVES!

---

From what I've heard, this is Karcher's last year on his contract.

Oh, and Dan Reeves is a Christian, who just happened to be the head coach of teh Denver Broncos team that Karcher rode the bench on.

[Sly Fox]

Welcome Guest. While you are here, why not go ahead and register.

As for your suggestion to fire Coach Karcher, I have to chuckle. If what you heard is correct that this is the last year on his contract, then firing him would be fruitless. Why can him now if you can just let him walk away at the end of the season? You think have one of his coordinators doing double duty would be a better scenario? Please. But I do like your passion.

As for your Reeves suggestion, I don't see how that is the solution. Haven't we already been down the path of having a former NFL coach using the program as a semi-retirement? See where that got us? Somehow I don't see Dan spending his golden years flying across the country to sit in kids living rooms. I'm sure he'll be happy to fish and watch football from his living room in light of his well-documented health problems.

That said, keep coming back and expressing your thoughts anytime. The more the merrier around here.

[Jeff]

There was a time when it appeared firing Morgan Hout was a good thing because his teams could not hold fourth quarter leads but in hindsight, he may have had some of the best teams in LU's short history.

[Sly Fox]

You know, Jeff, that exact thought came to my mind when I read the original post in this thread. "Out with Hout!" I was among the vocal dissidents. But Morgan sent more than his fair share of players to the NFL back when we only had Division II status to recruit prospects.

I think its likely just part of being young (and trying to rage against the machine) that has college students always calling for the head of the head football coach.

[jimflamesfan]

Wouldn't a major differece be that Morgan Hout had mostly winning seasons. Karcher hasn't had a winning season in the 5 years he has been here.

Ironically, it seems to be the quartback position where Karcher has most problems. The most productive QB that LU has had since Karcher has been here has been Biff Parson, and Biff wasn't Karcher's recruit, he was one of Sam Rutugliano's (I have no idea how to spell his last name) and stayed when Karcher came.

It seems that Karcher likes bigger, slower QB's with strong arms that stay in the pocket (I'm guessing he's looking for some type of Drew Bledsoe type player). The problem is that we have had immobile QB's in Condon and Trouth - and to make matters worse, they don't seem to be able to throw the ball as accurately as Biff did.

Well, at least this week we had another chace to see Travis Johnson come in and lead the flames directly down the field and score near the end of the game. This is the same backup that led us right down the field twice at the end of the Lehigh game. Now I realize that he was playing against second the second team, but I think it is time for him to get a chance to start. I'm sorry, but the defining moment for me that Trouth's time is up was this:LU had a 3rd and 10 in the 3rd quarter of the W&M game, we're down by 17, and he rolls out, can't find anyone, and then walks out of bounds to avoid being hit (after gaining about 2 yards)- no effort to make the 1st down whatsoever, he plays like he's in the NFL or something - or he had already given up.

Furthermore, how many times are we going to snap the ball to the punter off of the ground? This has been a problem every year since Karcher has been here.

Karcher said that we could play with anyone on the schedule - but W&M manhandled us. Every year we get big talk and no results. To me, it's getting old. At this point I wouldn't be dissappointed if LU left Karcher walk if his contract is up. But I would be more inclined to be pro-Karcher if he would show some kind of willingness to at least shake things up in the passing game - what have we had so far - about 2 total TD passes for LU in 6 whole games, with one TD comming against a D-2 school? When Rutigliano was here, it seemed like Ben Anderson was throwing TD passes to Courtney Freeman every game. W & M probably had more touchdown passes against our defense than we will score all year.

[Sly Fox]

I can't argue with a solitary point of yours, Jim.

It does seem odd that a Karcher team would struggle primarily trying to throw the ball. But keep in mind, he's ran out of eligibility to throw it himself.

As for Hout, back when he was at Liberty my dad used to brag of Morgan because they went to the same alma mater ... Tennessee Temple. A school, incidentally, that has never even had a football program.

[jimflamesfan]

But looking at the schedule, here's what I think will happen. LU has Coastal Carolina and Charleston Southern up next. Now I think Coastal is 3-1, but I think they lost to Newberry, which I think is a D-II school, and furthermore it's only the second year of the program. Charleston Southern has had a terrible record over the last couple of years, although I believe they had a big win over VMI this year.

That being said, LU should roll over these teams. And Liberty will probably win, and the passing game will do better. Then the official LU website will say how much better the passing game did. The problem is, Liberty needs the passing game to show up in close games, not against teams that can't stop the run and have to move the linebackers and safeties up. When it matters, our passing game chokes. Lehigh and W & M were teams where we needed to execute passing plays. But against Lehigh we had 3 late interceptions. Against W & M, the first play of the game we had a wide open flea flicker, the QB had all day and the receiver was wide open, Troth underthrew the ball, and the receiver dropped it (he still could have caught it - they were both at fault)...instead of being up 7-0, we eventually had to punt.

In the games where the passing offense did "well", it was because we were either behind early and playing catch up, so the defense was giving us short passes (i.e. Kent State and Youngstown state - where we were behind early thanks to our special teams that struggle), or the other team couldn't stop the run (Gardner-Webb).

I've been to almost all of the Liberty home games in the last 3 years (since Biff graduated), and I don't remember a game in this entire span (about 30 games)that the passing offense has won for us, does anyone else? (The best pass that I can remember was a 4th and 8 pass from Condon for a 1st down in the rally against VMI last year...but remember, that was like only 1 of 3 passes that were thrown the entire 4th quarter).

[Sly Fox]

I agree that the Flames should be able rebound the next few weeks and salvage a semi-respectable record for the season. Thank you very much, Big South. The problem is that after nearly two full decades of Division I-AA status, we don't seemed to have advanced as a program beyond where we were at the end of the Hout era. I hate to be repetitive, but with the national recruiting potential that Liberty has at its disposal there is no reason we should continue to be mediocre to poor at the I-AA level. No reason except for poor execution on both the recruiting and coaching fronts. At some point, the light bulb is going to click in the LU Athletic Department that they shouldn't be operating like other Division I-AA programs. Until that happens, living off of the mediocre talent pool of leftovers within a 200-mile range and the occasional I-A transfers is going to be extremely difficult.

As for the passing game, if the run game were overpowering it would help set up the passing game (and vice versa). But since we seem to be living off an average run game with practically no passing game it makes it all the more tougher for both. And you can understand the reluctance to keep chucking the ball as long as they remain ineffective. That just puts an already taxed defense on the field for even more snaps each game. Catch-22.

[Guest]

Me again, the guy who posted the original topic.

Karcher is a quarterbacks coach, right? That's how he was heralded. But let's take a look at how the QB's have done under his tenure, in terms of passing efficiancy (and all these stats can be accessed from NCAASports.com).

2004 - 100
2003 - 98
2002 - 96
2001 - 50
2000 - 65

Just so you should know, the 2003 and '04 statistics are team efficiency, whereas the other three are individual (from Condon and two years of Biff, who he didn't recruit).

So we can agree that Karcher's been a bust in the area of his expertise.

When Karcher came before the 2000 season, he said that it would take five years to take the team to where they want to be - competing for a national championship on the I-AA level. At that point,we'd be competitive with ANYONE on our schedule. And that's not the case - we're getting blown out by guys ranked in the lower 20s.

If we win the big south, congrats to us - we defeated a perenially lousy Charleston Southern team, a winless VMI, a fledgling Coastal Carolina and Gardner-Webb, who played 60 minutes of terrible football. But still, it's a step in the right direction, although I don't think that any quality recruits spurned us because we were merely the Big South runners-up last year.

You know the thing about Morgan Hout, is that the team was changing - playing a more difficult schedule, as it was making the transition into D-IAA. And by his fifth year, he led his team to #18 in the nation by the end of the year. There's no chance of that happening - I know that we're receiving votes in the coaches poll, but those votes I guarantee are coming from a Big South coach who decided to cast ones for whoever is leading the Big South.

We do have talent on the team. I do want to see LU football do well. But I don't want to see talent such as Sam Gado, Dre Barnes and Travis Johnson lost with Mr. Magoo at the helm.

Morgan Hout put his five years in, made significant improvements to the franchise, and then stepped aside in favor of Sam Rutigliano.

Karcher put in five years, nearly tanked the team before putting together back-to-back .500 seasons (assuming LU wins the Big South). If this is the end of his contract, give him a gold watch and thank him for his service... But please, please, please - start the search for someone of quality.

I'll say it again - Hire Dan Reeves. Please!

[Sly Fox]

And I'll say it again, Dan Reeves is a bad idea for many reasons. But it doesn't matter because it is not going to happen.

I think we all agree that the passing game is practically non-existent. And when it is existing, it is hurting more than helping the cause. There really is no argument.

I repeat my previous sentiment that firing Karcher in the middle of a season is not going to happen at Liberty. Its extremely rare when it happens anywhere in college football. If a change if in the works, expect a decision the day after the final regular season game. That way any new coach will have time to put together a recruiting class and begin installing their systems.

Unlike some major programs, there is really no booster/alumni pressure on the staff and athletic department. That is both a blessing and a curse. If alumni would pony up some money, it might allow the staff a little more latitude in recruiting.

There seems to be an understanding that This is the final year of Karcher's contract. If that is true, I suspect a change may be in the works. But there is absolutely NO WAY that the school would buy out his contract if there is any more time left on it. The athletic budget could not afford it with the practically non-existent revenues the program is generating.

[eddantes]

Oh, I have no problem in giving the guy the opportunity to finish the season out. In fact, I hope he wins out and the team finishes 7-4. But still, I hardly think it's unreasonable to want a new head coach after five years of ineptitude.

As for the boosters, you are right that they don't have nearly as much clout as they do at a larger school (like say, Penn State). But that just means that the Good Reverend has more clout. And when it comes time for Falwell to decide about the fate of his football team, he should ask himself "are we better off now than we were five years ago?" It is my contention that the answer is no.

You know, I went to Liberty during Rutigliano's last year and graduated in May 2003, so I didn't get to see one winning football team. My younger brother is there now; I hope he doesn't suffer the same fate as I did.

I mean, we saw what a change of face did for the men's basketball team - which of course, they won AFTER I left.

Shucks.

[Sly Fox]

If the Flames finish 7-4, expect to see Karcher back. History tells us that Liberty doesn't run off coaches unless they feel the prgram is in complete chaos. Right or wrong, that just how things operate on Liberty Mountain. Dr. J rarely steps in to make those calls. And keep in mind, the school is very pleased with the Men of Steel program for the football players.

And its really not fair to compare football to basketball. Its apples and oranges. Its much easier to turn things around on the hardwood since just a couple of players can make a huge impact. It takes a bunch of players to make a similar impact in football. Thankfully the Flames are turning the corner in hoops. But frankly, I believe standards in hoops are too low from my perspective. We have the potential to become a mid-major power in basketball. But that is a discussion for another day over in the basketball forum.

[guest2]

dittos dittos

i think we'll be 7-4 and karcher will be back. he should be, though possibly on a shorter contract.

[eddantes]

Me again, the guy with the original post. I managed to get my account activated, so when you see something by EdDantes, you know who's doing it.

As mentioned previously, Morgan Hout went 8-3 before he was replaced, so there is a precedent for replacing coaches coming off of good records.

I do have a question though - you say that in basketball it takes just a few players, but in football you need to have the entire team for a turnaround. I would argue that we do have a good team - it doesn't matter which running back we plug into the system, he's gonna get some serious yards. I mean, Falwell could probably break for 100 yards and 2 TDs with the front line we've got.

But even though we have that, we still aren't able to compete with everyone on our schedule, let alone for a national title, which is what the grand vision of Karcher was the day he walked into my dorm during a hall meeting during the Spring of 2000.

Don't think I'm coming down on you, Sly Fox. Truth be told, I really do appreciate your point-of-view and I only wish that every Flames fan had the same knowledge and love for his team that you do.

(Now let's start lobbying to get um... Steve Spurrier to draw the X's and O's) ;D

[Sly Fox]

Ed -- Its all good. Anytime I can find anyone to carry on serious conversations about Liberty sports I jump at the opportunity. Since I am a geezer, I'm not as connected to fellow alumni and current students as I used to be. Please pass the word about this board if you can to those who share our common bond. Even let some of those lunatics from the Big South boards know about this place (then again, on second thought ...). And for the record, I have absolutely no tie to this site other than posting far too often.

Perhaps the talent level is higher now than I suspect. I'll be honest, I haven't seen one of their games this season. I can just follow the boxscores and talk to friends who live close enough to attend games. My views on the talent level are based primarily on recruiting rankings which are obviously extremely subjective.

I have personally witnessed plenty of incredible turnarounds in basketball while football 180s are few and far between. Oklahoma in 2000 was the obvious exception. Perhaps with the right leadership, we could be contending for I-AA titles. But then again ...

Clearly, Karcher's grand plans haven't exactly developed the way he had anticipated. I have to admit, he earned a little respect from me early on for at least expressing his lofty goals. It has always seemed to me that coaches & administrators at LU set the bar very low in order to achieve some modicum of satisfaction.

[jimflamesfan]

I think Karcher's record at Liberty up until this point is 16-35. In his first four years, Karcher is averaging 3.5 wins a season. We have played a lot of 1-A schools, but this is balanced out by the fact that we normally play one D-2 school each year plus some lower end I-AA schools.

Karcher does bring in some talent. I have been to almost every home Liberty football game since 1997 (wow). I do believe that Karcher's teams are more talented that Rutigliano's teams. However, I believe Rutigliano was a much better game day coach.

Liberty's special teams are awful. Every since Karcher has been at LU we have struggled snapping the ball to the punter or for fieldgoals. We usually burn our timeouts early because the offense isn't sure what it is doing. We go offsides on 4 & 3 when the other team is punting (Youngstown state). We rough the kicker. We knock people's lights out when we're supposed to give them a 2 yard window to catch the punt (the poor kick returner from West Virginia Tech). (but at least he made the tackle - and then was ejected for the game).

But most importantly, Karcher doesn't understand when his QBs are totally confused. In the past two years, Karcher said again and again how Condon was the man - even after a terrible first season, Karcher went right back to him for another terrible season. After Trouth threw 3 or 4 interceptions in the fourth quarter of the Lehigh game, Karcher was quoted in the paper as saying something like, "Everyone has bad games...I have bad games, I don't see any reason why I would change quarterbacks due to a bad game". For some reason, Karcher likes QBs that are ineffective.

What really frustrates me is in the big games against local rivals, Karcher really chokes. William & Mary this year was a choke. JMU last year was a choke (what was it, something like 48-3?). The only exception was VMI last year...but Liberty really choked that game as well...we turned the ball over 4 times in the first half of homecomming. If it wouldn't have been for VMI wanting the loss more and giving the ball back to us a bunch of times, roughing the passer on 4th down and giving us a first, and a LU receiver making an unbelievable catch on an underthrown pass (with his shoe flying off at the same time!), we would have lost that game as well. We've choked against Eastern Kentucky and Appalachian State as well (thanks to our special teams) in the past couple of years.

I really appreciate the talent that Karcher brings in. But I am becomming more and more convinced that he cannot win games as a coach. And small wins over Coastal Carolina and VMI and Charleston Southern wouldn't do much to change my mind. We need to blow them away.

I like the Guest's idea (is it Dante now?). Give Karcher a gold watch at the end of the season, thank him for his time, and announce a new coach. (The problem is, LU should be looking for a coach right now so that we have one for the end of the day after the last game). How bad will it have to get before LU decides it is time to change? We let Hankenson coach hoops until we were last in the country before making a change. Hopefully the same thing won't happen in football.

[Sly Fox]

Great points, Jim. I never thought I'd see the day when we could have a frank and honest discussion about Flames football.

As for Hankinson, it was tough to bring down the hammer on the guy because he was just so entertaining. His temper tantrums along the bench were just too funny for words. And as bad as those teams were, he had plenty to rant about.

[guest2]

Special teams were much improved last year, and correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't Marlon Roman the long snapper? If it weren't for his accident, things would be fine this year. And actually, we pinned W&M on their 1 yard line thanks to a weird punt that was the result of a bounced snap. The bad snaps did nothing but good for us in that game (only game I've seen).

Also, you can't say we choked against W&M. They are a great team, and they could certainly finish the year ranked in the top 10. They have wins over no 6 NH and no 19 Northeastern, and their only loss was to UNC 49-38.

Karcher may have the problem of being too "understanding" of QBs who have potential but don't perform well in the games. He may also go for the QBs who LOOK like QBs over those who perform well. (Both Condon and Troth look like real QBs...Painter didn't really, and Johnson looks awkward at times..partially from being young)

Are we so sure though that it is primarily Troth's fault and not also the receivers?

[jimflamesfan]

My reply to guest2:

Yes, special teams were somewhat improved. I am so sorry for what happened to Marlon Roman. I hope that he recovers...the last I heard they had to fly him to California to be with his family because the insurance wouldn't pay for him anymore in VA. The last I heard was he was still in a coma. I'm sure that many people are praying for the Roman family, as well as the Goodman family, at the loss of his brother.

But back to special teams, yes they were better last year, because two years ago, we were snapping the ball over the punters head. We have improved last year to sometimes snapping it to the punter, and sometimes snapping it into the ground. This year, we prefer to snap in off the ground most of the time, but by now Noah Crouch has so much experience with the bad snaps that he looks like somekind of soccer golie keeping the ball in front of him and getting it kicked away.

You are correct in stating that the bad snaps did not hurt us in the last game. However, the fact is, that even though special teams were improved last year, we still weren't consistent and did not always snap the ball to the punter, and our kickoff coverage was also horrible last year (VMI returned almost every kickoff past mid-field during last year's homecomming game). The fact is that you can't blame terrible special teams for the past 3 years on losing one long snapper.

Secondly, William & Mary was a good team...I'm not arguing against that. But the way Karcher has talked the whole season is that he says we are as talented as anyone on the schedule...and he says its about us and not about them. Those are his words. But truly W & M was a much better team, which means that Karcher's recruiting is not where he thought it would be. Furthermore, Karcher makes the schedule. Last year we played JMU away to open up, followed by two 1-a teams on the road (Toledo and Bowling Green). I know we need to play good opponents to get better, but is starting the season 0-3, or 1-4, etc. every year a good way to build a program?

Third, You are exactly right that Karcher likes to play players that "look" like QBs over players that are effective. I happen to think that this is a bad thing. The coach should know when his quarteback is rattled (Keeping Troth in for as long as he did in the Lehigh game was an embarrassment...the normally silent LU crowd was even getting mad at him...I had never heard people screaming bad remarks at the coach & QB before at a LU game). Troth did have good numbers at East Carolina, so maybe their are problems with the receivers, but that goes back to either the system and coaching, or recruiting. To me it seems like he is not comfortable with the system at LU, and he's not mobile enough to get away when he can't find an open guy.

[Sly Fox]

By this point in the season, it is likely that a big part of Troth's struggles have been because he is pressing. Quarterback is the most cerebral position on the field. And when you begin questioning yourself as you throw the ball, it only adds to the difficulty. What he needs is a big game throwing the ball against one of these Big South cupcakes and he may just break out.

Then again ... having not seen the team play this season I have no idea how much of the problems are the result of the QB or receivers. Once defenses smell blood in passing situations, the blitzes come fast & furious and the reads become much more of an issue. That apparently was the case against Lehigh. Its tough to place blame with things are so poor across the board through the air right now.

[eddantes]

I dunno. I think it gets back to play calling, too. When LU was playing Youngstown State, I listened to the game on the web through YSU's radio broadcast, and they were commenting at how many times we ran the ball on first down. Finally, we got snuffed there badly (on what could have been the game-winning drive) and the announcers were saying "Well, what did you expect? How many times did LU think they could go to the well?"

Plus, my younger brother was at the Lehigh game as a ball boy on the Lehigh side, and he could hear their coach say things like "watch the play action! watch the play action!" and sure enough, we'd run a play action and get smashed. We're getting too predictable. That's why I like it when Karcher mixes things up, like with flea-flickerers. But there's like an unwritten I don't know about - that we can only do those once a game.

On the plus side, it looks like the rest of the schedule shouldn't give us too much trouble. Coastal Carolina and Charleston Southern should be W's, Elon's a coin-flip and VMI and Chattanooga have a combined ZERO wins on the season. 7 wins isn't out of the question. 6 or fewer wins and I'll be firing off e-mails to Kim Graham and Falwell about the need to begin the coach search.

[tucker]

Y'all go ahead and look past Coastal. Look way down the road. Just make sure to bring a crying towel to the game cause you'll need it. ;D

[Sly Fox]

I'm still curious how Coastal Carolina Community College was even admitted to the Big South Conference.

But you do have a point, Tucker. The way the Flames have performed this season even CCCC could beat them if they don't put forth some effort.

[jimflamesfan]

We do have to be careful about Coastal. They beat VMI last week, so now they're something like 5-1 (although I believe they lost to a D-II school - Newberry).

Furthermore, Karcher has a terrible record on grass. I think we have only won 1 game on grass the entire 4 plus years that Karcher has been here (and that win would be at Charleston Southern last year). However, this being said, I still think that our offensive line will just be too powerful for Coastal...we should run at will against them. But that won't help us learn if our passing game has improved or not.

As far as for Endantes comments - my dad was at the Youngstown state game and he listened to it on the radio as well and commented on how the announcers knew when Liberty was going to run and going to pass. My dad also commented on how special teams and stupid mistakes led to the early 21-3 lead that Youngstown had in that game.

[Jaques]

Sly said:

I'm still curious how Coastal Carolina Community College was even admitted to the Big South Conference.

But you do have a point, Tucker. The way the Flames have performed this season even CCCC could beat them if they don't put forth some effort.

uh...I think Coastal was a founding member of the Big South.

[Chantman]

Sly said:

I'm still curious how Coastal Carolina Community College was even admitted to the Big South Conference.

This is the "Community College" who won the Sasser Cup last season for having the best overall sports program in the Big South.

[Jawz]

Excuse me guys. Is it just me, or are there more Coastal fans here than Liberty fans? Weird.

VMI's O-line was weak against us, but they have the "greatest" RB in the WORLD and we still beat'em in their own house. I also hear the excuse of VMI was too depleted, but having a bunch of sophmores and freshmen on our squad is nothing I guess. Actually that's a compliment ;D.

As for counting us out, that's exactly what we did when we went to Newberry. Get ready to learn the lesson that we did.

[Sly Fox]

Jacques -- You missed my point. Chronology had nothing to do with my ponderings.

Chantman -- I never thought I'd hear the day anyone was bragging about Sasser Cups. We certainly never have around here.

Jawz -- Coastal guys are always welcome here. IT adds a little life to a board that has begun to deteriorate into a "Can Karcher"-fest.

I have to admit, I now have more than a passing interest in Saturday's contest.