Building a program

[grimmy50]

I am a Liberty Grad (Class of '99) and I honestly dont know what Liberty is trying to accomplish with the football program. At Liberty, one of my profs said that Liberty should go D II and find its niche in competing with the powerhouses at that level in the South. I thought that was a horrible idea because you only get the real media recognition at the D I level (notice I said D I and D I AA).

I used to volunteer with the Athletic Department, and one of my jobs was assisting with crowd "estimates" for the local papers. I know from being in the community that 3/4 of the attendees were non-paying customers because we used to take stacks of tickets to local businesses for them to give away.

Now, Liberty is as close to the middle as one area can be between two top 25 college teams (Virginia and Virginia Tech). I dont believe (barring a miracle) that Liberty could ever achieve D I status for football. The fan base isnt there because Liberty traditionally pulls alumni from all 50 states and however many foreign countries and the religious polarization that Liberty represents.

With all that being said, why are facilities so important. I would say most athletes who come to Liberty would come to Liberty anyway because of what Liberty stands for. I honestly dont believe facilities matter one bit.

Now if you are building it so they would come - what are they coming for? Is Liberty glad to be part of the Big South in Football? Now, I am just glad they are part of a conference no matter how bad it is. They used to struggle on the independent circuit. Maybe now they can get some rivalries going, but I digress......Is the Big South the niche they found? That being said, the Big South is D I AA and the talent they are getting is D I AA, will that change with a new fieldhouse? Will a new fieldhouse catapult them to D I agains the likes of Virginia and VT with 36,000 fans at Williams Stadium?

I know I am jumping around here, but can anyone shed light on the strategic plan for Liberty Football?

[PAmedic]

First, it's great to have stumbled across this forum! Back when I went to LU, this stuff wasn't even a remote possibility- I think we only had about 10 Apple2's in the computer lab, and we had to cross"The Ravine" on a wooden bridge. (you other oldtimer remember what I'm talking about)

As to "building a program", funny- this is what I was hearing in the mid to late 80's! Another thread posting talked briefly about Morgan Hout and Sam Rutigliano- didn't know anybody down there even remembered them anymore!

[PAmedic]

Anyway- I wish you all the best of luck in rebuilding the program (AGAIN). Miss LU and those great football weekends- can only observe the results on ESPN and online these days, but you guys are still in my thoughts down there.

By the way, the stadium and arena look great on the website, they were still being built when I left. Also, never thought I'd see DeMoss w/ more than 1 story!

[Sly Fox]

First off, welcome to both to grimmy50 and PAmedic (go ahead and register if you get a chance, PA medic). As more people discover this forum hopefully you all can spread the word that there is a place to discuss the Flames.

As for grimmy's points, I understand your disallusionment. Your issues are undoubtedly the ones holding back the program back from either being a I-AA contender or possibly making leap up to I-A status.

Keep in mind, most professors have disdain for the athletic program because it chews up money from the overall budget that they'd prefer to have at their disposal. So take that with a grain of salt. Its the same at practically every school in the nation ... academia vs. athletics.

Division II would sove NO problems at all. We had similar costs competing at the Division II level back in the old Mason-Dixon Conference than we do now in the Big South. The only real difference is in some non-conference travelling and additional scholarships. Frankly, the biggest travel issue comes from non-revenue sports making longer trips to compete against top tier schools. That simply is the price to be paid for Division I status. So D2 offers no real advantage. I was on campus when we made the move up to Division I-AA. Frankly, most were pessimistic we could compete in most sports at Div I level considering how poorly we were doing in every sport outside of baseball at the time. But the level of competition between I-AA and II is not as great as some would consider. Particlularluy in the bottom-feeding Big South.

Every LU student has known attendance figures have been a farce forever. The lack of paying customers not only makes it tough on athletic department to operate fiscally, it also keep us from having any shot at moving up to Division I-A status under the NCAA's new guidelines. But its obviously a catch-22. Nobody wants to pay real money to watch LU face the Gardner-Webbs and West Virginia Techs of the world. Unless there is a recognizable opponent to draw in the college fan not connected to LU, Lynchburg and Central Virginia in general will continue to yawn and be content to watch Dennis Carter's minute and a half of highlights.

LU's proximity to UVa and VT really shouldn't have any major impact on growth plans. Just take a look down to the research triangle. There's an ACC school on practically every corner.

But your point about the alumni not being connected to campus is a major issue. I would certainly be a season ticket-holder if I weren't half a continent away in Texas. Since such a small portion of the alumni base resides within a couple hours drive of Lynchburg, it adds an obstacle. Another alumni factor not mentioned often is that the school has only been in existence since 1971 and it didn't really begin to grow until the '80s. So the total number of alumni are much smaller than most schools our size. And let's face it, its the older alums that prop up the giving at most schools. UVa is living off the endowments from their 18th & 19th century graduates. Tech has well over a century of alumni to collect from. Meanwhile, most Liberty alumni are still trying to support families or just get started. LU alumni are not attractive targets for raising funds. Thankfully, Jerry has kept the campus growing from other non-LU alumni sources through his connections. If Liberty were dependent solely on alumni contributions like most private schools across the nation, we might not even have an athletic department.

But there is reason for hope. Plenty of private schools have been successful despite a widespread alumni base. Notre Dame and BYU come to mind. Granted, both had large headstarts with their programs.

As for facilities, I would have to respectfully disagree with your premise. I believe improvements greatly affect recruiting efforts. While I agree that most current athletes on campus probably would've come not matter what is on campus, you have to think about all the quality Christian athletes who have gone to state schools because theyt couldn't justify in their heads making such a dramatic sacrifice in terms of where their athletic dreams might lead. 17- and 18-year-old kids are VERY influenced by three factors in making their choice on schools:

1. How a school can maximize their athletic career either through playing time opportunities or through professional aspirations.

2. How blown away they are by the facilities they will be living and working in. Kids are always impressed with shiny, new toys. Having covered recruiting professionally I was astonished at how much this played into decision process. But I know for a fact that a new fieldhouse will have ZERO impact on attendance unless the team starts winning.

3. What kind of social life can I expect. State schools really sell a party lifestyle that few athletes actually get to enjoy much because of time constraints from atheltcis and school (i.e. Colorado). Liberty attempts to recruit a different kind of athlete who wants to know how much fun they can have within rules. Most Christian athletes we should be targeting nationwide won't be scared off by The Liberty Way.

As for Big South, it is well established that it is simply the best we can manage right now. It is arguably the poorest Division I conference in the nation (battling MEAC & SWAC). But you are correct that it is a much better option than our days as an independent. Hopefully we can work our way into a much better conference during the next round of realignment. But with our reputation as Jerry Falwell's school, finding a place to land is proving VERY difficult despite what we can bring to the table.

As for the current strategy up on Liberty Mountain, I often wonder about it myself. The athetice program is nowhere near where anyone wants it to be. But at the same time, the issues we're discussing have a stranglehold on the future. Prior to the new NCAA Division I-A guidelines, many of us were championing the cause to make the step up. Financially it was viable based on selling ourselves to football powers for losses. But we weren't able to get our act in order prior to the tide being turned on acceptance to I-A status. Perhaps the NCAA will relex someof the guidelines or we will improve in enough respects to make the leap once again. Until the day we achieve Division I-A status, it is going to be difficult for the program to thrive. Its obvious Jerry continues to have a vision for the program (albeit rose-colored) and as long as he is alive we will continue to try and work toward those goals. I fear if we don't achieve some level of success prior to his departure, we may have to settle for where we are now or worse.

Anybody else want to chime in? I know Steve and some the others around here have plenty of thoughts.

[grimmy 50]

I really enjoyed your reply sly fox.

(Speaking from a marketing prospective) My biggest beef with the program is that they have cheapened the product. Now, granted, the program is not great and maybe the stadium would be empty if no free tickets were given away; so there is a pyrric victory with unpaid butts in the seats.

Now, the students are allowed to get in free. How many other Universities do you know that allow that. I am not saying to be unfair and make the students pay a ridiculous amount, but students would come and would pay (there would be a tremendous backlash, and then gradually acceptance). I am not talking about a charge that would grow the program on the backs of the students (like $5.00 per seat - discount for season tickets) but at least a small stream of revenue.

Secondly, nix the free community ticket giveaway. Stop taking stacks of tickets to local businesses. Discount advertising by offering tickets or something to that nature. Make sure you are getting paid for giving access to your event. This is completely foreign to LU, but Jerry doesnt have trouble asking for offering, so he should have trouble asking for paid admission to an event.

I cant agree with you more that without Jerry and his vision there is no way we would be where we are now. I work in a privately held company, and I know that when the revenue stream disappears, you cannot do what you want. Now take that a step further and realize that Liberty does it without a steady revenue stream (except tuition). It is amazing to think how far we have come in a relatively short time. I believe that a growth strategy should be realistic. I know that Jerry's vision is grandious like his other visions and that he "thinks big", but for football (which is really secondary to his true ministry plans) there should be a realistic growth plan set that can be supported without outrageous donations.

My last year at LU ('99), we were making game days feel more festive by adding games at the top of the stadiums and creating an overall buzz. Now, tailgaiting would be a tantalizing tradition to start, but with the lack of parking on a congested college campus and the lack of alcohol (not that a prototypical Liberty fan would indulge in libations - there is really not a party atmosphere. Now a party atmosphere and winning go hand in hand, but I am working on the marketing angle autonomous of the actual product on the field. There should be events within events that create a stir like a free concert with paid admission or some huge giveaway. You need to put butts in the seats by attracting a crowd, not cheapening an event.

I cannot disagree about what you have mentioned in regards to athletes on the field, but that effort should go hand in hand with marketing the product that is on the field.

[jimflamesfan]

What really seems to bring people is winning. I am actually happy with the Big South at this point in time.

As Sly Fox and others have mentioned, LU has tried hard to get into a conference, and at least with the Big South, we have one, and we can get bids into the NCAAs in most sports. How neat was it to see Liberty men's basketball team on ESPN2 twice last year (vs. High Point in the Big South Championship and vs. Duke in the Alaska Shoot-out). That couldn't have happened with the Big South. The Big South gives Liberty a chance to play on a level in which they can be successful, and at least get some recognition (you can go onto the web and at least click on Liberty in most places and get the scores).

Furthermore, in the Big South Liberty gets to play Radford and VMI in every sport every year. The LU/VMI thing seems to be somewhat of a rivalry that is growing.

As far as crowds go, if you exclude the last game against Charleston Southern, LU was averaging over 10,000 people per game this year...that's pretty good, and the atmosphere is twice as exciting as it was when I was at LU, and there were also some big crowds last year for some men's basketball games (Highpoint, Radford, Arkansas State).

I think the crowds will come as the campus enrollment increases...at least the student section is almost filled up...and eventually students become alumni.

But back to football. It's time to look realistically at scheduling. I don't want to go back to Ritigliano style where we basically play 3 D-II schools a year. But playing these I-A schools every year is killing us. We need to play somewhat of a lower end 1-AA schedule and hope we win out. Something like the 4 big south schools plus Delaware State, Samford, Hampton, Lehigh, Cal-Poly, Norfolk State, 1 division II school, and one more solid team - like Hofstra - that seems to enjoy playing us.

In this way we don't end up starting the season so badly every year. That's the way I see it.

[Sly Fox]

Let me take a wild guess and say that you were a Sports Management of Marketing major, grimmy.

I guess my perspective on the LU football program might be a little different than you because I graduated a deacde before you. For most of my time at LU, we were playing our home games at City Stadium before mostly family and friends despite having a very competitive D2 program (LU was senind players to the NFL every season). It was embarassing having about a thousand fans in the stands for a home football game. So when the stadium was built on campus and students started finally showing up, it was quite a big step forward.

Frankly, it is hard to cheapen a product that has such a low market value to begin with. I have to admit I prefer a good-sized crowd with very little tickets sold as opposed to a tiny crowd with very little tickets sold. Unless there is a better product, all the marketing in the world isn't going to fill Williams Stadium. That takes us back to success on the field and the scheduling. Right now, neither one is a selling point.

I'm not sure making the sudents pay is the answer. First off, unless times have changed from when I was in school students don't have much disposable income. And most of that is targeted (sometimes in vain) for romance and music. The obvious fear is that if you start charging students then the turnout will drop dramatically and the overall experience will suffer as a result. To me, the risk/reward just isn't significant enough. AS for other schools letting students in free, it actually is fairly common. Most schools include a student fee along with the tuition payments. I have a fairly intimate knowledge of the largest & richest university in the US and even though they have an 80-thousand+ stadium that has been sold-out for years with waiting lists of alumni contributors, they still give out free tickets to students in all sports. In football and mens basketball (both of which are Top Ten programs) there is a draw for a limited number of tickets. Students camp out or get up at the crack of dawn to wait in line for their free ducats (which a vast majority then turn around and sell for profit). So even when the big boys can make a mint for a seat from an alum, they choose to get students imvolved to keep the energy level up. Otherwise, there is not much difference between the college game and the professional level. The college spirit on gameday is perhaps the ultimate marketing tool.

I agree the free ticket giveaways are not a great idea. The vast majority of giveaways go unused except to the few folks who would be your paying public otherwise. I understand the rationale because it is fairly common for schools (and pro teams, for that matter) to offer tix as part of the deal for advertising. But you are absolutely on the mark that it makes bad business sense at the end of the day.

As for the business model for the athletic department, you can throw standard practices out the window. Unlike big D-IA programs, the football program doesn't generate revenue for the other programs on campus. LU uses the athletic program to market itself to potential student where they can collect those rapidly excessive tuition fees. In other words, the school considers athletics a necessary evil financially. It is simply another cost on the ledger that goes with the territory. That's why I was so gung ho a few years back for us to move up to I-A status in order to start cashing in on getting thumped by the Nebraskas and Michigan States of the world for big paydays (the powerhouses now pony up between $300-800k per home date). But as mentioned earlier in the thread, we missed that boat.

Frankly, I always have admired Jerry's vision for greatness. If you aim low, you'll probably be on target. The problem I have seen is that too often the athletic department hasn't shared the vision and is content at mediocrity or worse. I am all for steady growth as long as the ultimate prize remains a part of the equation. I felt for many years that was the case. But the past few years have really been frustrating.

I like the way you are thinking regarding the gameday atmosphere. It seems there are things that could be done to enhance the feeling on campus leading up to the evening gametimes. As someone who has taken part in quite a bit of tailgating, I can attest that it can be successful without alcohol. It just need to start later in the day. Most of the alcohol consumption while tailgating comes from spending too long waiting around for the game. The parking issue would be the greatest challenge. But there are plenty of other ideas that could work as part of the Liberty lifestyle. But that's a subject for another thread on another day.

As for Jim, I agree with your sentiment that we are much better off at Division I-A level than Division II. I just wish you hadn't brought up Sam's name. I am still trying to forget that frustrating era.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree somewhat with your concept of students eventually becoming alumni to attend games. The fact of the matter is most LU graduates do not stay in Central Virginia. They either return home to where they call home or head somewhere sunny like Texas ;D

[heaf]

Wow. sly fox sounds like jack sparrow on brains

I'm scared again. VMI is better than CSU and their home field atomosphere can be a big boost. Carcher better not take them for granted. He loses this game and he's gone.

[Sly Fox]

What's that I smell? Its a coach pulling his hind end out of the fire once again.

Against a team who kept their perfect record intact, the Flames get their act together enough to handily beat a bad team for the second week in a row.

It appears we may have finally found a quarterback in Farrel. But it comes a little too late to do much good in the big picture this season.

So we now stand at 4-5 overall with 3 Big South victories along with that Coastal butt-whipping. Somehow I don't see us hanging any banners for Big South runnerup honors. Sheesh.

The next two weeks have Chattanooga and Elon on the horizon. Meanwhile, the Mocs and the Phoenix are both 2-7 right now. And Elon has managed a combined 14 points in their last three losses. Neither are exactly what you would call juggernauts at this stage in the game. But neither are the Flames. There remains the opportunity for LU to finish 6-5. That would probably be enough to keep Karcher around. We'll see what goes down.

As for heaf, welcome to the board. Go ahead and register and return often. With football season winding down and hoops about to get rolling, things are beginning to heat up around here. I'm not familiar with Jack Sparrow, so I have no idea if your line was intended as compliment or a slam. But being a Liberty fan, I feel more accustomed to the latter. So I'm good either way.

[grimmy50]

I am not familiar with the rules......if LU would win the Big South Championship - does that equal automatic birth into the DI - AA tourney?

[rokamortis]

If the Big South had 6 teams or more then yes - it would mean the winner of the conference gets an automatic spot on the playoffs. But since we are only at 5 teams then the winner more than likely won't make it to the playoffs.

[grimmy50]

Any word on a sixth member?

[Sly Fox]

Rok is correct ... you need 6 football members to get a conference an automatic bid by NCAA bylaws. To be honest, just having five is a start considering our situation just a year or so ago.

Take a look down just a few threads for the discussion of adding another school to the Big South.

[jimflamesfan]

Actually, I believe that just having 6 teams wouldn't get the Big South an automatic bid in football.

First, I believe that you have to have 6 teams for 2 years before the bid, and second since only 16 teams make it to the playoffs, I believe there is no more room for any more automatic bids.

That said, having 6 schools I think would do two things: It would give the winner of the Big South a very decent show at the playoffs, because the selection committee would have to decide amoung all of the automatic bid contenders which one was the worst and drop them out...and since there are some other small I-AA conferences (Metro, Big Sky, etc), the winner of the Big South could get in if they had a decent record if we had 6 teams in the conference.

Secondly, if they ever expand the D-1aa playoff field, then the Big South would also be in good position to get an automatic bid.

[rokamortis]

I think they would decrease the number of at-large bids instead of making the winner compete with a winner of another conference. But that is pure speculation.

I haven't heard anything about the 2-year rule - but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.