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Post by jimflamesfan on Sept 27, 2005 19:43:53 GMT -5
And here is Dr. Park's response...I don't understand how I was inaccurate, but I appreciate the fact that he does respond:
Jimflamesfan:
I do appreciate your good thoughts. I also very much appreciate your Flames Club membership, program loyalty and fine support over the years. We need folks like you here.
I am well appraised of everything you say although some of it is, respectfully, clearly not in any way accurate. If you heard Bob Good at today's Flames Club luncheon, he gave us all the mandate as Christians at a Christian institution of what you might consider doing as a FC supporter and how to deal with adversity. I have never heard it said better anywhere.
James, I have been attached to 11 NCAA institutions in some form in athletics since 1964 so there is not much I have not seen. Do call Bob at 582-2178.
Thank you for your support, James. I appreciate you very much your interest in Liberty Athletics. Every day we conduct The Great Commission through the Ministry of Intercollegiate Athletics. We will win if eventually if everybody on our team stays the course and supports the great work of our fine coaches.
All the best.
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Post by jimflamesfan on Sept 27, 2005 20:05:55 GMT -5
Stevev,
I did follow up and email Bob Good and ask him to switch my $25 from football to men's basketball, I even offered to match that with another $25 for women's basketball if he lets me make the switch.
I also carbon copied the chancellor.
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Post by Stevev on Sept 27, 2005 20:13:59 GMT -5
The only inaccurate things that I noticed in your letter was the score of last years William and Mary game. It was 37-17 and Travis Johnson scored 1 touchdown at the end. I was there at that game but was gone by then heading back to the Comfort Inn frustrated as usual about LU's poor play. Anyway nice letter by yourself. Could have thown some stats at Mr Good explaining how Terrible things have gotten but a good piece of work. Mr Goods letter back, although nice, didn't address the main concern (the current state of the football team) but at least he responded. I got no response at all from Kim Graham 2 years ago after writing him a 3 page letter. Mr. Borek's responses were always great. I will spend some time tonight and tomorrow at lunch to get my thoughts together and send Mr. Good a letter. Anyway nice work Jim.
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Post by jimflamesfan on Sept 27, 2005 20:17:09 GMT -5
Thanks Stevev, I do remember, we actually kicked a field goal early...so it would be 37-17. I was at the game as well. But look...from 37-17 last year to 56-0 this year.
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Post by thelaxman on Sept 27, 2005 20:25:23 GMT -5
I'm sorry I think you guys that cut down Coach Karcher are lost in space.
There is all this negative talk about Karcher but do you all really believe you can do a better job? Karcher has done his best with what he has to work with. Recruiting top Football Athletes to a school like Liberty is not an easy task. Even I understand that from the two years I recruited Club Lacrosse Players for the Lacrosse team.
I know he has been there for a few years but I think we need to shut up and get out of the way and let the Man do his job. Give him a little more time. After all I have not really seen anything LU Football has done to get excited about since Morgan Hout and Liberty cut him loose for a washed up former NFL Coach. I know for years under Sam, Liberty did very little in the Football area. Karcher has made some strides and just comparing him with some stat's just is not fair at this point.
Building a winner is hard work. I know right now I may take over the Head Coaching position for the University of New Mexico Lacrosse Team and for the most part it is a broken down program. I have not made any final decisions but will decide something in late November or early December depending on my health and what my family has to say . But If I do take on a broken down program like UNM the last thing I would want to deal with is a bunch of Arm Chair Generals that don't have a clue on what it takes to build a winning Team at a special institution like Liberty.
Remember the Principles of winning are Image, Attitude, Work Ethic and Fraternity and if you are missing any of those you wont win and the bottom line is it takes a long time to build those principles to perfection.
Just my two cents,
John Westfall LU Lacrosse Alumni 1987
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Post by jimflamesfan on Sept 27, 2005 20:29:14 GMT -5
Laxman
1997: LU was ranked 19th in the nation...two years before Karcher took over.
Haven't been anywhere close since. Amazingly, the ice hockey, men's basketball, women's basketball, debate team, and other programs have all been able to do well despite all of the "obsticles".
I don't think being a Christian institution is the hindrance that you make it out to be.
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Post by Stevev on Sept 27, 2005 20:30:41 GMT -5
Jim,
That was the last game I have attended (I usually go to 3 a year). I remember the failed flea-flicker on LU's first play from scrimmage. I also noticed how much better coached W & M was compared to LU. W & M's receivers ran precised routes and seemed to be wide open often considering the yards after catch. For LU it was chaos on offensive. Gado had success early running the ball then W & M keyed on him shutting him down figuring no one else was going to do much damage. QB Troth was slow and was sacked too many times. After that performance I had it a point not to come back to Lynchburg anymore until things improved substantially. Well they have gotten much worse. I plan on sitting this year out. Can't even get myself to listen to the games over the web or look at the sports ticker anymore. I come here on the Firehouse and get the info since this is where I can get an honest opinion of the whole situation.
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Post by jimflamesfan on Sept 27, 2005 20:32:39 GMT -5
Stevev,
Remember we had sucess at first putting in Travis Johnson for one play in the first quarter to run.
Then we tried the same thing about 4 more times...like W&M didn't know what we were going to do. They crushed that play the other 3 times.
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Post by jimflamesfan on Sept 27, 2005 20:37:56 GMT -5
Laxman,
Karcher said himself it would take three good recruiting classes to compete with anyone...his words, not mine.
He's now in his 6th year. Sam at least had some successful teams...like I said, '97 ranked in the top 25, in other years...beat a Div I team, beat Appy State, beat Buffalo, now a I-A team, beat South Florida.
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Post by thesportscritic on Sept 27, 2005 20:42:23 GMT -5
Karcher said that it would take 3 recruiting classes to be a national contender. Nothing has happened in 6 seasons. We have a right to be frustrated laxman. Karcher just isn't cutting it. We have never been ranked since he has been here. It took Coach Dunton 2 seasons to turn Men's basketball around and they were ranked dead last in the country before Dunton took over the reigns of Men's basketball. There is no excuse for all of this mess I have watched over the past 6 seasons. Maybe you might be lost in space but we see what is going on on that field and there has been no results. Year after year Karcher and his team says, "This year is going to be their year." I have heard that non sense for the past 4 years. A team is supposed to get better every year not worse every year. LU football has gotten worse every year under Karcher's helm. It is time for a change.
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Post by Stevev on Sept 27, 2005 20:50:21 GMT -5
The Travis Johnson thing seemed kind of stupid to me ( put him in for 1 play to run and them yank him out). Couldn't quit figure that one out at all.
By the way I disagree with " the Laxman's" comments above. More time? He has had 6 years for God sake. How much more time does he need. He said it would take 3 years to build a championship contender. After year #4 we should have canned this guy. As far as LU being a Christian school is concerned I think that LU is in a position to use that positon to there advantage and not a disadvantage to build a respectable program. Look at Furman U(Southern Baptist college of about 2000) and how good they are in 1AA. If they can do it why not LU. We have the resources and the facilities no doubt. If he doesn't have much to work with that is his problem. That is his responcibility to bring in recruits capable of competing at 1AA. I'm not saying that we have to win championships but at least be competitive. This year LU is a total embarrasement and a disgrace to the university if you ask me. If women's basketball, baseball, ice hockey, and track can do it so can football. Could say more but I must move on.
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Post by Stevev on Sept 27, 2005 20:55:47 GMT -5
I totally agree with you comments sportscritic. 100% accurate! I feel the same way every year Karcher has been there.
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Post by PAmedic on Sept 28, 2005 5:40:47 GMT -5
Laxman I still love ya bro! But college football is a separate deal- I don't think ANY program can wait a decade to turn things around any more. 6 yrs out and no visible improvement had too much negative effect on sponsorship, marketing, etc. We're branding ourselves as losers.
I think to this point, everyone has been careful to say that Karcher (and even Dunton for the most part) are GOOD MEN; but LU football has not been a consistent winner, and this is a business. Its tough from a management standpoint- but I'm confident administration will do what has to be done at the end of the year- unless there is a miraculous turn around.
Meanwhile- we have to move on, this topic is sucking the life outta me! I'm still very much looking forward to being on the mt this weekend.
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Post by thelaxman on Sept 28, 2005 7:42:50 GMT -5
OK, I hear you Guys. I also can appreciate your frustration. I stand corrected on Sam's record. But he took over for Hout after the 1986 season and it took him how many years to put a ranked Team on the field? 1997? I was out west and like all of you was frustrated and by 1997 I did not even keep track anymore because they had been so bad. Since I lived and Coached at New Mexico at that time I took up cheering for the Lobos and even they had problems but they were competitive with the WAC Schools or now Mountain West Schools. I may not be a Football Coach but I know first hand how hard it is to put a winner on a field and recruiting and keeping quality Athletes at a School like Liberty can be a challenge at times. A lot of Athletes come to Liberty and are not ready for the discipline of the Institution and end up drooping out and some are turned away by that Discipline. I dealt with this first hand with the Lacrosse team I can't even imagine what it would be like for Football. Please don't get me wrong I agree with all the rules and discipline of the School as an Alumni but as a Coach it was a challenge to run a successful Athletic program.
All I have to say is I hold my opinion back on Karcher for now because I know I could not do a better job then him and I'm not going to fall into being an Arm chair General and as a College Coach myself I can't stand Arm Chair Generals. My recommendations is leave the Man alone for at least this season and this Winter petition the AD as an Alumni group to bring on a new Coach if you really are that frustrated. I hope to be 100% this Spring and back on the Field Coaching at the place I started my Coaching Career and I hope Lax fans are not this mean to me.
Keep the faith,
The Laxman
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Post by SCAR on Sept 28, 2005 7:47:01 GMT -5
AMen Medic. It is hard to sit and read all of this criticism of coach Karcher. He is a good guy. I understand where Laxman is coming from too. If you have ever coached in competitive athletics in college or even participated you know that the average fan does not have a clue about what it takes. The hours, the effort, the planning, video, not to mention academics. Running a program can be difficult. I am not saying that Karcher has done an outstanding job or anything but I have to admit I feel bad for him, his staff and his team because as bad as we all feel about the state of the program, they are living it every second of every day so imagine how they feel. As far as talent goes, from what I have seen up close athletically the talent is there to compete. I will never get on a message board or any public forum and call for a coach to be replaced. Mainly because it would be wrong as a member of the media. I do respect the opinions on this board and many have backed up their feelings with statistics and facts. All I can say on the subject is there is a lot of football left to be played and winning is a great deodorant! Lets have fun this weekend at homecoming and try to get behind this team, financially, spiritually, and vocally (I hope they give us something to cheer about). Looking forward to seeing many of you on Saturday. When we talk, make sure we use our real names. I am not gonna be calling you guys by your screen name persona's :-). Although I do like the name Bigsmooth. Got a nice ring to it. Smoothie I know we are playing phone tag but I will catch up with you today for sure!
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Post by cforest on Sept 28, 2005 8:03:32 GMT -5
I can feel your frustration with the coach. When things are down it is easy to throw darts at the staff. This years team is extremely young and inexperienced. This team neeeds a couple of years to mature. In two years you will see the results of this recruiting class. My experience with this staff during recruiting was that they don't communicate with each other. My son actually played for Coach Mays at Cordova High and was a definite 1 AA prospect (Coastal signee). We could never get coaches to return phone calls. He would have considered playing for Liberty, because of our christian beliefs. He plays fullback for Coastal and is in the rotation for the Chants. These are the players you can not ignore!!
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Post by Wait A Sec on Sept 28, 2005 8:13:39 GMT -5
Hey, everything the last guy said is what was said when Karcher first got here. How many more years are we going to hear "just a few more years?"
Building a program is hard. Fine. It's even harder when you have dolts running the show.
Being the head of FEMA is hard. But if someone's not getting the job done, you throw his sorry butt out of the head slot and put in someone who can.
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Post by thelaxman on Sept 28, 2005 8:40:56 GMT -5
Well Wait a Sec. , if you want to caste the stones why don't you fill out an application and give it to the AD and try Coaching Div 1AA Football at Liberty University yourself.
The bottom line it is still early . Let's see how the season ends first. As Alumni if we really want change then we can approach the AD in numbers and make recommendations this Winter. But for now let's let Coach Karcher do his job and support the Team unless you really believe you can do better.
Keep the faith Brothers,
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Post by PAmedic on Sept 28, 2005 9:02:54 GMT -5
Being the head of FEMA is hard. But if someone's not getting the job done, you throw his sorry butt out of the head slot and put in someone who can. now THAT's an analogy to which I can relate (FEMA)! Let me assure you if I performed in that manner- my Township Supervisors would have replaced me after the first DAY of the disaster, but I digress. I also liked the use of the word "dolt". you just don't hear that enough these days- dolt. Dolt, dolt, dolt. Love it. And SCAR- you will address me as PAmedic and you will like it. I may have a t-shirt made up! LOL
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Post by Wait a sec on Sept 28, 2005 9:08:22 GMT -5
The reason that I'm not filling out an application is that I haven't dedicated my life to football. I actually developed marketable job skills.
Karcher's life was football. Grew up, saddled the bench, and then became a lousy coach. He's a failure.
Keep this in mind: In 2004, Ken Karcher is the highest paid employee at Liberty University (that doesn't count "officers" like Borek and Falwell).
Karcher made over $125,000. For that kind of money, you could have sponsored probably 500 starving kids in Africa. For that kind of money, you could have built churches in India.
Instead, it's being wasted on a person who has tanked a program, and deserves nothing more than collecting a welfare check.
The bottom line, LAXMAN, is that it isn't early. It's been six years. How many more years before we declare Karcher a failure? Two? Three? Another six?
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Post by eddantes on Sept 28, 2005 9:34:41 GMT -5
Wait a Sec: 1) I agree, just tone it down a little 2) You might as well register.
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Post by Stevev on Sept 28, 2005 10:09:11 GMT -5
Quote: This team neeeds a couple of years to mature. In two years you will see the results of this recruiting class.
Personally I don't think that this recruiting class will have a chance to mature because most of them will all be gone next year and in years to come. I have heard that excuse too many times "Wait till next year". That excuse is getting very old by now. By the way having 15 returning starters from last year's team is not exactly what I call a rebuilding year. If LU was competitive in these games I would change my mind and call it a rebuilding year but we are not even close to being competitive.
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Post by Chris Lang on Sept 28, 2005 11:50:43 GMT -5
Serious question for the masses:
Since I wasn't here prior to this season, I ask this: Was the invective toward Karcher so heated during the past 1-3 starts, or has it reached a boiling point because of the WAY LU has lost its games this year?
Would it be different if LU had say, lost 59-0 to UConn, 31-24 to YSU and 35-21 to W&M?
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Post by Stevev on Sept 28, 2005 12:27:00 GMT -5
Chris, t Seems like last year over again only worse. What seemed to spark the "Fire Karcher" thread" was the loss to Coastal carolina (31-6). The fact that it was Coastal's 2nd year of football and they embarrassed us. Of course the William and Mary and Lehigh performances at home I am sure contributed since it was an opportunity to gain some respect by beating a ranked team but instead got blown out. This years blowouts have taken the disrespect for Karcher thing to a new level because of the severity of the blowouts. Even if the blowouts this year were not as bad I think that a majority on this board would still recommend that Karcher be replaced. I certainly feel that way about him now and for the last 3 years.
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Post by flameshaw on Sept 28, 2005 16:38:02 GMT -5
Chris,
From my perspective, I think the momentum against Karcher has beeen building for the last year or so, but was muted some because of the wins at the end of last season. However, due to the embarassing way we have started this season, the patience has obviously run out; especially since he doesn't even have one good year in the previous 5 to fall back on. There has been significant regression in the program since his arrival. I believe he is a good man, just not a fit for his current role.
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Post by PAmedic on Sept 28, 2005 17:47:45 GMT -5
And FLAMESHAW has seen a few teams come and go- if anyone is able to provide a benchmark, he is.
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Post by Stevev on Sept 28, 2005 20:46:49 GMT -5
My letter to Mr Good was sent via E-Mail. It is a long one so I don't think that I will bother posting it here unless someone wants me to. I just hope for a good and timely response. I presented the issues concerning the football team the way I see them. I will keep you posted unless told not to.
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Post by jimflamesfan on Sept 28, 2005 21:34:46 GMT -5
Chris,
stevev, flameshaw, and pamedic have it right. It seems that the Fire Karch thread started last year after the Flames were having trouble finding a passing game. It got really hot after Coastal embarrassed us at their place, and LU even lost the redshirt for Dre Barnes. But then LU came back and won the last four, so we were in a waiting mode.
Now we get the 158-0 in three games, and the mutiple QB rotations in the first quarter, when really the passing game wasn't as much as a problem as last year (Farrell seems to move the team passing), but we want to use Terrell, but we don't know how, and we also want to get Smith in there, so all are in there...meanwhile we can't rush the ball and are getting pounded.
If the W&M and Youngstown State games would have been as close as you said...I think there would have still been some patience....it would be like we still had the talent, but were still not getting breaks. But this is getting embarrasing.
Scar and Laxman...I am sorry if I offended you by any remarks about Coach Karcher. I do respect him and his staff as people. I just think that it was in the AD's best interest to move on. I would hate to have to do that to a person, though, because not only does it affect the life of the coach, but of the whole staff.
That being said, It's a hard decision for the AD. That's why I don't want to be a FB coach or AD. I just let them know what I think...they know I just a crazy LU fan that is hoping for more success for the program.
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Post by SCAR on Sept 29, 2005 7:17:10 GMT -5
No need to apologize from any of the remarks on here. I think you all have a right to say what you feel as long as you do it respectfully. These coaches and the AD are strong men that will do the right thing regardless of whether it is difficult or not. If Dr. Park has to make a move on the coaching position at Liberty, he will do it period. If he feels that Ken Karcher can get it done, Ken will still be the coach period. I know the administration respects our opinions and they want to see the program be successful as much or more than we do, so whatever is in the best interest of Liberty football and Liberty University will happen. I just said it was difficult to hear the criticism. I don't want to mute or censor you guys opinion on the subject. I can't speak for Coach Westfall on this but in my mind, you guys are welcome to express yourselves about Liberty Athletics. That is what this forum is for quite frankly. It is only when personal attacks and wild accusations get thrown around that things get out of control. This thread has been ok as far as I'm concerned. Again, people have presented their cases very eliquently and not emotionally although it is hard not to get emotional about the team we all care about being destroyed week after week. I just hope we have a good turnout for homecoming and that we score some points! Have a safe trip to Lynchburg, those of you who are traveling (including me I guess).
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Post by thelaxman on Sept 29, 2005 9:43:36 GMT -5
Scar:
You do represent my feelings and opinions but I go a step further. I believe we need to have more respect for the Coaching Staff and the team at this time early in the season. I feel for now we need to give the Football program our support. If we need to make these Coaching changes then let's express our feelings at the end of the season and make recommendations to the AD as an Alumni group.
Our Lacrosse team won a lot of games while I coached at Liberty but I would trade it all if we won more Souls for Christ. For now let's be one and give Karcher, his staff and the team our support and just maybe that can be a testimony and lead members of other Teams, their Coaching Staffs and fans from other programs to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just my two cents. God Bless,
The Laxman
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