Big South Expansion Still Just Talk Right Now

[Sly Fox]

Here are a couple of links from Big South Media Day including one posted by our friend Rokamortis on another board:

www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/sports/12262419.htm

Posted on Sat, Jul. 30, 2005

BIG SOUTH CONFERENCE NOTEBOOK

Coaches agree expansion is key to success

CHARLOTTE, N.C. With a membership of exactly five, the Big South coaching fraternity is a rather tight one. Nevertheless, the fact it unanimously agrees on an issue should tell you something about the issue's validity.

Friday morning, the group gathered to discuss various issues facing the conference, and all agreed that the most pressing concern is finding a way to get a Big South team into the I-AA playoffs.

Last season, Coastal Carolina went 10-1, but wasn't one of eight teams to receive an at-large bid to the tournament that James Madison eventually won. In 2002, Gardner Webb went 9-1 and was left out.

Because the Big South has just five members, it is not eligible for an automatic berth in the postseason (a conference must have six). That makes scheduling critical for the coaches. This year, CCU has stepped up its schedule in an attempt at making the postseason, while teams like Gardner Webb and Liberty say they have always made schedule strength a priority.

Nevertheless, all five coaches believe that expanding the Big South in an effort to attain an automatic bid should be a priority.

"I think that all of us as coaches would like to have an opportunity to play for a championship," said Liberty coach Ken Karcher.

Big South commissioner Kyle Kallander said that the conference and its presidents are "constantly looking" at expansion.

He says that he has talked to a number of schools about potential membership. Several are Division II schools looking to become Division I.

Subplots

There will be subplots galore once the 2005 season kicks off. The most heart-wrenching, of course, will be Charleston Southern's recovery from an offseason in which its leading receiver, Eddie Gadson, died in a car crash. Buccaneers head coach Jay Mills said that next week will be the first time his team is able to meet as a group since the June 16th accident near Gadson's home in Stockbridge, Ga.

Mills said a memorial service will be held on campus in honor of the wide receiver.

Elsewhere, VMI will attempt to recover from a winless 2005 season. Liberty, meanwhile, lost 24 seniors from a team that went 6-5 last season. Gardner Webb, on the other hand, hopes that some key returnees lead to its revival. The Bulldogs, who went 5-6 last season and finished out of first place for the first time in the Big South's three-year existence, return preseason All-American Brandon Schweitzer at defensive tackle. Quarterback Nick Roberts (198/360, 2,410 yards, 12 touchdowns 17 interceptions in 2004) also is back.

Compiled by David Murphy, The Sun News

____________________________________________

And in a thread on the AGS board about the Southern Conference Media Day, a poster called Mr. C who apparently by his past posts is a sportswriter for one of the fishwraps in the Carolinas posted the following:

The fact of the matter is that expansion isn't a very hot topic at the SoCon, or the Big South right now. The SoCon isn't doing anything until it gets a permanent commissioner and the Big South is currently in a holding pattern, waiting to see where some chips fall.

As a matter of fact, I am pretty fairly convinced we WON'T see Coastal Carolina moving to the SoCon now. What support CCU had for receiving an invite has started to erode, sources I talked to this week said. CCU doesn't have a lot of support in particular from the football programs at most of the schools. There are some schools in particular who don't like some of CCU's alleged recruiting tactics. The schools in the SoCon are a tight-knit group at the coaching level and such talk can have a big impact in influencing opinion.

www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2156&page=3

So it seems the Southern Conference isn't happy to just brush off Coastal attempts to join them. They have resorted to half-thingyed allegations they are running through the media. Classy.

[Stevev]

This Big South expansion thing is such a waste of time for us to discuss. Out of all that I have heard I only 1 team brought up that is worthy of recognition (Middle Tennessee State Univ.) but it looks like they have got there act together attendence wise and will stay at 1A for now. The possibility of them joining the BSC right now is slim and none. All of the other teams brought up in the past won't help things one bit (although some could argue about Hampton). We need to free up our schedule to give us the opportunity to play quality competition and a small conference would at least give us that opportunity. We don't need to worsen matters. Things are bad enough as it is. We don't need to fill our schedule up with garbage football teams. You must aim high. If you aim too low that is exactly what you are going to accomplish.

[Sly Fox]

We're talking baby steps here, Steve. We need at least one more football member to be eligible for an automatic bid in football. Right now, opposing schools are using the auto bid to recruit against us. One (or a couple) of these MEAC schools would help us move in that direction. As for these DIIs, I agree with you in general. A 6-team league would give us 5 conference dates and room for six others. That's plenty of space. Frankly, an 8-team league would still give us four non-conference dates. But I sincerely doubt that will ever happen in the Big South.

[Stevev]

Does that mean 6 teams or 6 respectable teams that play respectable schedules? Is it possible the BSC could be denied automatic playoff consideration for lack of schedule strength or lack of performance? I am a little confused right now as to what it takes for automatic playoff consideration. I guess if the MEAC gets it then the rules arn't all that strict. Also it is one thing getting into the playoffs (thanks to a weak conference)but it is another thing to be successful ounce you get there, but I guess that is another subject altogether.

[Sly Fox]

Right now, the MEAC gets an automatic bid. BUt the whole reason for the possible migration of Hampton, SC State or NC A&T is that the league is talking about passing up on I-AA Playoff to send top team to Heritage Bowl against SWAC champ. If that happens, they would lose their auto bid and if one or more of those teams bolted to the Big South, we would be a lock for the auto bid. Those three schools are I-AA football powers who would put the Big South on the map immediately as a legit I-AA conference. None of the three would contribute much in other sports. But football is what we are most concerned with at this point.

You need six teams to even be eligible for an automatic bid. And you are correct in your assessment that just having six teams won't assure us of anything. That's why I am not overly excited about a DII or two stepping up. Not only would they have to go through the Division I probationary period, but they wouldn't necesaaruly impress the NCAA enough to give us the bid.

Bottom line as far as the Big South is concerned, having the MEAC schools migrate over to us is the best case scenario. And I have a feeling that if one of the big three MEACs makes the move, the others wouldn't be far behind. There's been some talk that SC State might get an invite form the Southern Conference. But it doesn't appear likely.

[HarrisburgFlame]

Sly I have to agree with you here. We could take Radford School for the Deaf and Blind to get to 6 teams and thus an automatic berth. Then when you talk to recruits you can sell them on playing for a national title. Right now we can't do that. Furthermore access to the I-AA playoffs through the BSC might be an easier road than the A10 or other upper I-AA conferences.

[Stevev]

Thanks for clearing things up Sly. I'm still not convinced that Hampton, SC State, or NC A & T would help the conference all that much. Maybe a little but it wouldn't change my perception of the whole mess. None of these schools were all that successful in the playoffs ever with the exception of NC A & T's upset over Tenn St about 8 years ago and the MEAC usually gets blown out in the first round. Hampton can compete but I still would not consider them a top flight 1AA school. The other 2 have had there moments but those are few and far between and I have my doubts about there ability to compete in a premier 1AA conference. The only MEAC team that I remember with any sustained sucess in the 1AA playoffs is Florida A & M but they are now in a heap of trouble with all of those accusations against them. I guess right now the only solution is to get out. Plain and simple!

[jimflamesfan]

I think if SC State and Hampton bolted from the MEAC and joined the Big South, that would be GREAT for the Big South. I think we could get an automatic bid, and who knows what can happen from there. I would not be impressed with LU or Coastal moving to the southern, football may be a little better, but the small step up is not worth the effort. I would like the conference to look like this for football:

Liberty, Gardner-webb, Coastal Carolina, VMI, Charleston Southern, Hampton, SC State, and Presbyterian College.

Eight football teams. The winner gets and automatic bid. Anything can happen in the playoffs, and it would help the whole conference recruit (wasn't it a while back that someone said that the LU's girl's basketball would never win a tournament game while in the Big South?)

As far as basketball...If we let SC State, Hampton, and Presbyterian play Big South Basketball, we would have 12 Basketball teams, right? Both nice even numbers, and wouldn't it be better to substitute Hampton and SC state for two of the D-III schools on our men's basketball schedule?

I don't think the Southern would help us at all. First they steal Elon because they're worried about losing an automatic bid, now there jealouse of the Big South schools starting to improve, so they take some shots at Coastal. I hope LU and Coastal have nothing to do with the Southern.

[PAmedic]

I've heard some positive things on other boards re: SC State, however- no indication anywhere "official" that they are seriously considering a move. We need to find a way to reach out to these schools; sometimes its a matter of personal contact in the business world- who ya know- that makes all the difference. At least put a face to our name.

[Stevev]

Right now the BSC doesn't even come close in comparison to the Southern Conference. The Southern conference has been one of the premier conferences in 1AA football for a very long time. Appalachian State, Furman, Georgia Southern, and sometimes others have great programs, play great schedules, and seem to do well in the playoffs. I'll have to admit that the league play has been a little down the last 2 years but the Southern will rise again to the top because this conference has what it takes to be competitive. I'm sure Marshall's move to 1A hurt somewhat but they became too good for 1AA anyway. There is no way anyone can say that a move to the Southern wouldn't help.

[ATrain]

I hope we'd aim a little higher than the Southern...its a conference full of old farts with its glory fading in the light of the A10/CAA football conference and in basketball it'll never be anything more than a one-bid league, just like the Big South. If by some miracle both the SoCon and the CAA comes knocking on our door, I hope we'd immediately go with the CAA and totally snub the SoCon.

[jimflamesfan]

Atrain, you hit the nail on the head. If LU were to make an effort to change conferences, I would hope that they would aim higher than the Southern. The point being, it would take a huge effort to move to any conference, at least make it a major step up.

Until then...the Big South needs to be recruiting these unhappy MEAC schools.

[Stevev]

Agree. The Colonial would be a great move. Although the Southern conference is not too far removed from those glory years. I would pick the Colonial due to more in-state teams with the possibility of developing rivalries with those teams such as JMU, W & M, and UR.

[jimflamesfan]

I definately agree. I would love for us to be playing JMU and Richmond in basketball and football every year.

[Sly Fox]

For the record, Hampton is ranked Top-15 in nation in every poll I've seen and SC State is usually Top-25 in all the various polls out right now. A&T is definitely down right now. But those three schools a tight-knit group in the midst of the rest of the MEAC.

As for the Southern Conference, they are a big step up from the Big South in football. But in everything else, they are really no better. And with Appy State looking to go I-A and Ga Southern considering it as well, that league is looking less and less stellar for the future. If the much-discussed moves up happen, it'll be Furman and and bunch of 2nd-rung schools like we already are playing in the Big South.

We're not operating from a position of strength right now. We need to start winning in football and mens basketball to force ourselves into the picture for the bigger leagues.

[Stevev]

Based on what I hear it looks like the Colonial is the way to go right now. A respectable performance vs UConn and wins vs William and Mary, Youngstown, Chattanooga, and Towson should provide respectability and get there attention.

[HarrisburgFlame]

Sly -

Last I saw App State is not going DI. The commision they appointed to review the possible move STRONGLY discouraged ASU from moving. Basically ASU operates at a loss of $400,000 yearly from football. If ASU moves to DI and averaged 17,000 tickets sold for the season (requirement for DI is to average 17,000 tickets sold per game for 4 consecutive seasons or have a stadium that seats 30,000 or more) and picked up another $750,000 from guarantee games they would be operating at a net loss of over $900,000!

ASU is renovating the football facility but I think the move to DI is going to be way off for them. According to the study I read they will need to penetrate the Winston-Salem and Charlotte markets to have any shot at selling 17,000 tickets on average for a season.

I know this whole BSC thing gets heated from time to time but - it is our ONLY option right now. We needed to be in a conference - period. This was our only offer for football. If the Southern Conference came calling I can't see any way in the world we could snub them. maybe we would like to but I bet people in the Athletic Department would be diving over one another to sign the pact to join. I do agree however that beyond football the Southern is not overall a better conference. But it does have more name recognition.

I think our best bet is to expand the BSC and win some games in football! The CAA and A10 aren't going to happen ever in my opinion. The schools in those conferences want nothing to do with us. That's why I would like to schedule as many of them as we could as part of the OOC schedule and kick their fannies. You think Richmond and W&M and JMU and Villanova and those other snob schools are going to let LU into their faternity?

I want to see us get some players, move this football thing along, and do some BigSouth butt whippin'.

[Stevev]

You brought up some good points. But I would rather still be independent in football rather than settle for being in a conference that will bring us down to that low a level. It would certainly show that we are more available and interested to join a respectable conference. At least we can schedule a few 1 A's, some in-state competition from the A10 and others from quality conferences such as the Southern or the Southland. At least being in the Big South we could guarantee the weaker part of our schedule then aim higher for the rest. We must get out of concentrating so much on the Big South and start looking at the overall bigger picture. At least with 5 teams if gives us plenty of room to look up for quality competition.

I heard the same about App State. 6 years ago they looked into going 1A then backed off. I think that you are right about those snob schools. They definately don't care too much for LU at all. We just have to try our best to put them on our schedule and hopefully get some wins.

[Sly Fox]

Appy St. currently has a president who is trying to find any justification to go I-A. Most of the Appy alumni on the AGS board seem to think its not a matter of if but when they step up. Georgia Southern wouldn't have that much trouble meeting I-A requirements right now. That's why I mentioned those two schools specifically.

As for the Colonial, they are so full that there is no chance we will get in anytime soon. Our best hope in that regard is that with all the schools in the league adding football, there may be a split. That would present a golden opportunity for us.

I agree that until we can find the right place, we need to do whatever we can to build the Big South into respectability while stepping up to start knocking people around in the league.

[PAmedic]

I think that was Rok's point over on the other post- its legitimate frustration w/ our conf, but we'd have a little more weight in the argument if we were actually mopping up year in and year out. To have a right to whine about, we really should be a perenial powerhouse. Not to say its NOT a weak league though.

[HarrisburgFlame]

I know time will tell on this ASU thing but it's not a good move for them. First of all NC has 5 schools playing DI football right now - UNC, NCSU, Duke, Wake, ECU. Conference affiliation wise where does ASU go? Playing in some league with Troy State fighting for some budget hotel bowl game? How are they going to draw when Duke and Wake opertate at about 50-60% capacity for home games? ASU is going to greatly increase its finanacial risk and how many years would go by before the chance pays off?

One other point regarding the BSC - we needed to be in a conference. The days of being an independent are gone even at the I-AA level. I cannot stress enough to the board how difficult it is to schedule games! The BSC give us 4 guaranteed dates leaving 7 dates we have to secure. To me that is too few but much better than going out trying to find 11 dates. Plus there are synergies that are created from being grouped together with other schools. No one else was kicking at the door to let us in their conference. The BSC was it.

You know how we make ourseleves more attractive to other conferences. Winning and facilities and $$$. We need to get that football operations center up. We need to keep scheduling and eventually beating good OOC opponents. We need to get the season ticket holder base up. we need to be able to point to someone higher up at a cnference office and say - our LU athletic association has X # of members and we bring in X dollars a year in a positive light.

I think we have to look at ways to make the most of the present situation keeping an eye out for the future but making sure we take care of business in the here and now.

[Realist]

I think H-flame hit it on the head. You guys are always talking about moving somewhere, but you have to be king of your own castle first, and women's b-ball and track and field are the only sports where you can claim it.

[LUconn]

While I agree that no league is gonna give you a second look if your team is a peice of garbage, I don't think you have to be the best team in your conference to have another one want you. You just have to be attractive enough that they'll make money by having you. It could be premium facilities, large alumni base, TV market size, name recognition, winning tradition, and money. Any combination of those will get you noticed. Unfortunatly LU doesn't have many of those right now. I think we finally have money, and pretty darn good facilities (and getting better).

[HarrisburgFlame]

I think that is a very accurate assesment. But I would also say in a lower DI-AA conference like the BSC - you increase your exposure by winning. The amount of weight given the the winning portion of the equation above is probably a little higher in the BSC.

[bigsmooth]

i agree with HF... we need to show we can win the BSC before we move anywhere. does anyone have insight as to who the DII'S are that are interested in coming to the BSC??

[Sly Fox]

The SAC has several schools looking at the possibility of stepping up. Presbyterian is supposedly going to happen. Some posters on the d2football board claim the Big South invited Wingate a year ago to no avail. Caron-Newman would make sense, but there's been no indication they are looking to move up and deal with the increased expense. Apparently, Presbyterian has no money issues.

[Stevev]

Presbyterian and Wingate- you got to be kidding me!

There are 2 issues here
1) LU's poor performance agains't quality competition - Like I said earlier we haven't beaten a good team since the 1997 season when we beat Appalachian State. That is a very long time without a quality win.
2) Poor conference - This conference is the worst in 1AA and that in itself is bringing LU down a few notches just by our affiliation with it ( Not that we were all that good in the first place). It could be that it is forcing us to play down to their low standards.

By the way why are so many of us praising Coastal. I know that they only have 2 years of football under there belt but last years wins were against Big South and lower division teams (even lost to Newberry). I know they beat LU pretty good but that is about it (of course it doesn't say too much for LU to lose to a team only 2 in existence). Are they being ranked simply due to their record or are high expectations being generated by transferes/recruits coming into the program. I remember South Florida and Alabama Birmingham doing more in their second year against much tougher competition and not get this much recognition when they started their programs up. At least Coastal did boost their schedule a bit so we will see if the expectations are going to be a reality.

[WinthropEagleFan]

stevev said:

2) Poor conference - This conference is the worst in 1AA and that in itself is bringing LU down a few notches just by our affiliation with it ( Not that we were all that good in the first place). It could be that it is forcing us to play down to their low standards.

Why not force the others to play up to yours, if that's the problem? Coastal is a new program that is only going to get better, and CSU is now showing a commitment to football that's much bigger than they've had before...so it isn't like the league is just sitting there and doing nothing to get better. And based on the conference standings during the first three years of the league's existance, I still can't understand why LU fans (along with VMI fans) complain about the level of competition...

[Sly Fox]

VMI fans still have the Southern Conference fresh in their minds. We simply have higher expectations. Its tough for us to get excited about being in a league with such a terrible reputation.

The reason everyone is so excited about what Coastal has done is that they have accomplished it primarily with underclassmen. They lose basically no one from last year's team that was improving dramatically as the season progressed. Will that improvement continue? That's what many of the pollsters are counting on. But you have to earn the respect on the field.

While Coastal comes from a very different background academically than we us, they are very similar to us in what they are trying to do athletically. They are fast-growing school investing a ton of money across the board into all their programs. They are forging a fanbase and niche in their hotly-contested recruiting zones basically out of nothing. Sound familiar? That's why I would love for us to stay aligned with these guys as we look to make the next step up in the Division I foodchain. We don't have many allies with similar goals.

[HarrisburgFlame]

I'll just want to remind everyone on the board that we had no other choice but the BSC for football membership. We need to be in a conference. This is a journey and other than one great year under Hout and a few good years under Rutigliano - we haven't done enough in football to be snobby toward anything in regards to football. We are very much in building mode so let's just start where we are and let things progress from there.